For those of us into "naturalistic" cities/regions, the transition from plop water to game water remains one of the greatest challenges yet facing us. Magnificent progress has been made in creating excellent and beautiful plop waters, along with a myriad of attendent props that make PW look natural, and equally wonderful work has been done on water mods that make the game water look so much better than the Maxis "plain vanilla" version. However, getting the PW and the game water to flow seamlessly together has yet to be accomplished.
There are a number of work arounds I've seen. Waterfalls are often used to make the transition, but in RL it's rare that a waterfall drops off a cliff and into the sea. I've seen folks use bridges as a transition, hiding the meeting of the PW to the GW under the bridge. Some folks construct dams at the mouths of rivers, which again masks the transition but how many dams are actually built across the mouths of rivers? For smaller streams and creeks, culverts going under a seaside road fit the bill nicely.
But for rivers of any decent size, say 4 tiles across or larger, it seems the only way it works is to use game water. In some ways this is an acceptable compromise, as large rivers enter the sea at sea level and usually are barely above sea level for many miles up river of the sea. But what about the streams and creeks and smaller rivers that always, always feed into the larger river?
It's a conundrum, no doubt about it. I've been experimenting and have not found anything I am happy with so far. So I am hoping that maybe if a bunch of us talk about it and experiment together, we just might come up with something that actually works.
This is as far as I myself have gotten so far:
One of the problems with PW/GW transitions is water color and transparency. Most PW is opaque while GW has an increasing level of transparency as it approaches the shoreline, which makes it almost clear/white at shallow beaches. I have gotten around this by creating underwater channels in GW that run inland. This happens in RL even with small bodies of running water...I'm sure we've all seen stunning aerial and/or satellite photos of extremely braided river delta systems. I've found that using the Edmonton v2 with dogfight's Marshy Green Water mod creates a GW color, in deep water, that is a nearly flawless match to PW created by first laying down and Edmonton PW tile and then overlaying it with jeronij's blue TPW. A deep water channel created by raising terrian in God Mode, then using the Quick Level tool at smallest size to drag a small channel from a deep water location to someplace upstream of the shore line, then using the Major Mode Quick Level tool for an even smaller brush size, then carefully smoothing the banks of the channel those created works fairly well, once one lowers terrain back to normal, again in God Mode. This creates a naturalistic looking channel running out to sea and, if one is very careful, creates a decent transition spot, so long as your transition area is not across diagonal cells.
The problems with this method are several. Edmonton PW will not plop under GW. jeronij's TPW will, but regardless of how carefully I prepare the transition area, there is a graphic gap between PW and GW. If there was an opaque PW the same color as the Edmonton that COULD plop under water, this problem could be solved. I know zero about modifying game instruments, so for now I'm stuck using what others create. A second problem is that while the GW modifiers I use and listed above create a nearly perfect color match, I don't really like the way it makes my GW look. The problem seems to be dogfight's mod, which is very flat, no water texture to it, and it has "jaggies" and appears pixilated as it changes hues moving from deep water to shallower water. I much prefer PEG's "Brigantine" mod with the Edmonton v2, but I have not been able to find a PW, either stand alone or in combination with another, that makes a color match to that GW combo. PEG's "Tahoe" plop water comes close (and it has nice sparkle to it), but again it's fairly flat, it won't plop under GW, and it's not very transparent, so making river and stream banks shallow and naturalistic is difficult.
That's as far as I've gotten so far. I would like to hear from others who are trying to figure out this last obstacle and see examples of how any others may have solved it.
Lora/LD
i know of one water set that has been made to match game water which solves the problem, the PPonds by peg, and his briganteen water texture, but that is the only one I know of ()sad()
I know I personally do a lot of "naturalization" at the transition. Lots of sand and rocks and boulders and various forms of PW as well. Rarely do I use plant life. I feel there isn't alot out there that is scaled correctly or has the right color to it. Most seems way too green/tropical looking. If I could figure out how to tone down the green-ness I might use it more often.
Of a similar problem is if I use GW to make a bridge across a PW stream/river. Currently I am working on a region where a large portion of the terrain is only a few meters above "sea-level". When making suface streams it is very easy to just terraform a few meters lower where I want a bridge to cross. Then I have to "naturalize" the area to match the rest of the stream. Sometimes the transition in and out of GW is the real challange. I think it takes alot of practice, because I seem to be getting better at it.
What is needed it some turbulence that could be placed in GW. Actually some "ploppable" turbulence in the form of small rapids would be of a great deal of help. I think I have all the "turbulence" currently available. All are great but all lack something. I'd love to see some sort of bubbling brook turbulence that could be plopped ontop of PW/ploppable rocks, etc.
Well there are my thoughts so far. lol
Edit Heres some pics of recent stuff:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg508.imageshack.us%2Fimg508%2F7611%2Ftransition3.jpg&hash=b854d41bcd00b76c51fa7462311da7dd6747f463)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg338.imageshack.us%2Fimg338%2F6865%2Ftransition2.jpg&hash=e0cbbcbe07c1a8cad9e22effd68bc2fa2706247b)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg60.imageshack.us%2Fimg60%2F5794%2Ftransition1.jpg&hash=7de964fbdc4c259c944e8eb2cbc7722900c89a12)
And some thumbnails to click on as well.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg79.imageshack.us%2Fimg79%2F4063%2Froadoverpw1.th.jpg&hash=3968d70727a12dc6f91928ab44be9f9916836cd8) (http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roadoverpw1.jpg)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg372.imageshack.us%2Fimg372%2F3956%2Froadrailoverpw2.th.jpg&hash=e6c86729825714cfe3b44ea61b60df2be344b613) (http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roadrailoverpw2.jpg)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg508.imageshack.us%2Fimg508%2F6960%2Froadrailoverpw1.th.jpg&hash=a5f2f2e2fced5a95b339a5f48940a0a995d500d9) (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roadrailoverpw1.jpg)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg189.imageshack.us%2Fimg189%2F8642%2Fpwtransition1.th.jpg&hash=69bc977753a55b357744ab746300010016314a7f) (http://img189.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pwtransition1.jpg)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg394.imageshack.us%2Fimg394%2F1167%2Fploppablewater1.th.jpg&hash=d76f14e5e90612e1f76f7a19c2e0335d7128dc40) (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ploppablewater1.jpg)
---Gaston
Good to see a discussion started!
rdrdrdrd, I have the Brigantine water mod installed and all of PEG's PPond kit with the Tahoe water and do not find them to be a good match to each other, especially in shallow GW. The Brigantine becomes rather muddy as it approaches shore, becoming a greyish-brown color that doesn't in any way match the slatey-blue of the Tahoe PW. Also, the Tahoe PW won't plop under GW, which leaves a visible graphics "hole" between PW and GW. ()sad()
Gaston, I've had some small success using the "cover up" technique as well, but again it's lacks the realism I am seeking. In RL, there really aren't any barriers between fresh water and sea water, in fact an important inter-tidal area is usually formed that supports an array of unique plants and animals that are adaptable to both conditions. Also, there is rarely any magnitude of turbulence, as by the time fresh water meets the sea it has been traveling at near sea level for quite a ways and what creates turbulence in water is 1) obstacles around which it must move and 2) slope across which it flows. Stream dynamics (which I took a class in college about years ago) are such that by the time a fresh water body meets the sea, all the large objects the stream may have carried while flowing at a steeper/faster rate upstream have already been deposited. At sea level, the fresh water body is not flowing fast enough to carry objects large enough to create obstacles it must then flow around. In fact, by the time fresh water bodies meet the sea, they are usually only carrying a fine suspension of silt, which creates the magnificent braided (and treacherous for boats/ship) river deltas I spoke of in my post above. So while the cover-up technique can effectively mask the PW/GW transition areas, it doesn't create a very naturalistic look, at least not to my OCD eyes.
I was playing with one of my cities last night and yesterday, trying various tools and techniques. I have a large river, about 12 cells wide, which I used deep GW to create. I used a combination of God and Mayor mode terraforming tools, mostly Quick Level and Soften. This large river runs off my region map, so transitioning it with PW upstream is not an issue. However, there are lots of small streamlets that empty into the large river and those will have to be PW, probably PEG's Tahoe, as he has created a 1/4 cell plop that will be most useful for tiny little creeks. Also, lucky for me, this large river is bounded by a fairly extensive system of levees (it's a RL river in the far northern part of the San Francisco Bay, the Petaluma River), so my plan is to use culverts to run the streams through the levees and let that be my PW/GW transition.
This same city has a creek running from an adjacent city tile, actually across the two city tiles to it's west, Novato Creek. It's fairly small, only about 3-4 cells wide and meets San Pablo Bay just south of where the Petaluma River does the same, so the creek contibutes to the larger river's delta formation. This creek is also becomes levee protected as it approaches the bay, so again I'll use culverts to transition the creek's many tributaries. But transitioning the creek itself is going to be a little trickier. Again, lucky for me, there is both a highway and a railroad that cross the creek, and the railroad is actually built on top of a levee, so I think I'll once again be able to use a series of culverts through the RR levee to transition the creek. I tried last night to use a small Quick Level brush to drag GW far enough upsteam in the creek to meet the RR levee, but didn't get very good results. Today/tonite I think I'm going to try the Valley tools and see if I can get a better result. I don't want the creek to be GW once it leaves the city tile, as it runs across two more tiles and starts semi high up in the hills to the west, in a lake, so I must transition the creek fairly close to the bay shore.
I'll take some pics of what I've done so far and post them here later. Maybe by then I'll have figured out the creek transition, too.
And please, anyone, everyone, post pics of how YOU have created PW/GW transitions. Also tell use the tools you use, including any mods.
Lora/LD
Hello Lora,
I collected some information about making GW/PW transitions in the SC4 Landscape Designers Development Thread. (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=7959.msg262020#msg262020) I posted it there because I promised it, and you was also asked me about transitions in that thread.
I also see you make much terraforming. SC4 terraforming tools are absolutely precise and you are able to create any shape you want. It only needs some patience. Here are two of my tutorials which can be helpful for you:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2165.0 (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2165.0)
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=6405.0 (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=6405.0)
And of course you have many David's excellent terraforming tips in 3RR! :thumbsup:
Adam
Ennedi-
I am currently monitoring 3 threads on this subject...this one, the one in the Landscape Design Studio, and one I created over on ST on the SC4R General Game Discussion board. The ST thread has fallen off the front page due to lack of response, so I doubt I'll monitor it much from here on out, as not too many ST folks seem to be very interested in addressing the PW/GW issue.
Your new post on the LDS board shows some very good transitions, especially the East/West appearance of the custom waters you created. Any plans to release those to the general public anytime soon?
My only question to you right now is how you get PW to plop under GW, as I have had no success in doing so myself. With the GW at normal level, I get a "cannot build on water" message when I try to plop PW under GW. I have tried raising terrain, plopping water, then lowering terrain and when I lower terrain all the plop water bulldozes itself. However, I am using Edmonton v2 in addition to Brigantine as my water mods right now, so maybe the Edmonton is interfering. I'm not totally sure what the Edmonton v2 does other than I can't get the Edmonton PW to work without it. It seems to underlay waterever water mode I use, including the game default water, making it darker.
I was saddened to read that using the TPW looks to make PW/GW transitions impossible, as I really, really like the TPW appearance for shallow streams. I have been thinking of using the same PW all across my region but now I am thinking I may use different ones for different conditions. I've also found that using TPW as an overlay over an opaque PW creates some very naturalistic effects in terms of giving the illusion of increasing depth.
I had read your first fine terraforming tutorial a week or so ago but not the second, so thank you very much for the link. I was not aware that the level tool could be used across slopes to create a uniform slope or knife-edge ridge...good to know, that information will come in handy. I have been using jeronij's method of flatten the top and bottom of a non-uniform slope using inididual steert tiles, then running roads down the slope, one beside the other, then bulldozing it all. Quick, easy, and while it costs money, I use the Moola cheat so I never worry about spending money in my cities.
One thing I did notice is that in almost all or your pics you have waves turned off. I really like the waves effect on my seashores and don;t really want to turn them off. I am trying to figure out some way to so gradually grade the seashore that waves don't occur even with waves turned on. Do you think this is possible or does the game engine automatically create waves regardless of underwater terrain depth (or do you know)? Waves are another issue to resolve in the PW/GW comundrum.
Lora/LD
This is about the best i can do using stuff available at the mo
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi201.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa148%2Ftheteacat%2FWatertransition.jpg&hash=074347e576328627f25d3c99dadcd00f40d7713d)
Here i use jeroni's brown TPW and his dirty water effect to try to mask the transition.
I can explain more if you like just thought I'd post this quickly to see if this was the effect you were on about :D
:satisfied:
TTC
Teacat, yes that's the general idea but definitely not the type of look I am ultimately hoping to achieve. What you are illustrating here looks to my eye like a toxic oil spill! Also, I notice you have waves turned off, too, which I have noticed a lot of folks do when taking pics of PW/GW transitions, which is another thing I would like to avoid, as I like seeing waves along my seashores. However, I don't want waves in my GW rivers/streams/creeks, so waves are a problem I am trying to figure out a way to get around.
Lora/LD
I think it looks good if done the right way
here is one example
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi722.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww221%2Fsmashedsaturn%2FSC4%2F-Sep25001242694490png-1.png&hash=f86680c15f90ae42289efa516c21f6571ebfb0a7)
and after the finishing touches
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi722.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww221%2Fsmashedsaturn%2FSC4%2F-Nov14001242866916png.png&hash=47226d730e1d89ad4f1558f3f325c54205fe3bfb)
Teacat's comment and pic has been running around in the background of my thoughts for the last couple of days and tonite I thought maybe I was taking the wrong road with my efforts to create good PW/GW transitions. I've been trying to keep the PW blue and the GW blue, and it just hasn't been working well, although I've gotten close a couple of times.
But let's face it, by the time an above ground body of moving water meets sea level, it's been moving slowly over a fairly flat surface for quite some time (in most cases) and unless it's a really big, deep river, it's color isn't really blue...it's brown, mostly due to the silt load suspended in the water. Thinking back on the satellite pictures of river deltas we've all undoubtably seen, I realized that the river channels I've been touting are not blue but are brown. It's the sea level water that is blue. So I began to think I was going at this all the wrong way around.
So tonite I fired up my game and started playing around with a couple of ideas. First of all instead of gouging a channel from deeper GW to an arbitrary location to transition it with PW, maybe what I really needed to do was extend my shallow land near the seacoast further out into the GW, thereby raising channels for the river bed instead of lowering them. Also, maybe I should use a brown PW instead of the many various shades of blue available, as none of the blues really match GW, even with water mods installed, very well.
So that's what I did and here are the results. This is a "down and dirty" experiment and lots of finesse would need to be yet applied, but I am actually rather impressed with the results. The following pics show the same transition from all 4 points of the compass and as you can see, it doesn't really have a "bad side":
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg440.imageshack.us%2Fimg440%2F9909%2Fblackpointjan5001249190.png&hash=941ad9a5bf46735c96f7400550ff580b76ed4989)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg141.imageshack.us%2Fimg141%2F9909%2Fblackpointjan5001249190.png&hash=c7ee334d4690284d12751783a202c80932d58fb8)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg27.imageshack.us%2Fimg27%2F9909%2Fblackpointjan5001249190.png&hash=ab804eb88245e4b2b402297a389fd820f3936eef)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg36.imageshack.us%2Fimg36%2F9909%2Fblackpointjan5001249190.png&hash=c46b24cfbaa94db1f2e89a217e33035314f5a002)
I am using Cycledogg's "Italia" terrain mod with the optional "Olympic Beaches" installed. Also in use is PEG's "Brigantine" water mod and jeronij's muddy brown TPW. And the key is, as Teacat suggested, jeronij's "Dirty Water" plop to soften the transition between the TPW and the GW. It's a little tricky to accomplish, but this is how I went about it:
First, I used a God Mode level brush set small (1) at a close zoom to slowly push my river bed out to sea, after I first raised terrain to drop sea level and be able to see what I was doing. When I had reached the natural confluence of sea level to river mouth, I stopped and lowered terrain back down to restore sea level to normal. In future if I use this technique again, I'll be more careful to soften the transition area, as yu may be able to see some darker TPW areas at the transition area and I would'nt want that.
Second, I used the muddy brown TPW liberally but carefully and laid the river bed out across the above sea level land all the way to the edge of the city tile. Then I zoomed in closer and started laying TPW tiles carefully over the very shallow GW. What is especially nice is that the TPW covers up the waves that so very much bug me at PW/GW transitions. Once I start plopping the TPW along the sea level shore line, I start filling in beach areas and beging to taper the TPW off as I move away from the river mouth. All I really want to do is cover up the waves and create a transition zone and if you look close you can see that.
After I have all the TPW in place, I then very carefully start plopping down some dirty water. Before I started doing this I plopped it once in open ocean to see what it looked like away from land and it forms a circle several cells in radius, darker in the middle and fading towards the edges. If it overlaps itself, it becomes darker in the overlapped areas and too dark to match well with the TPW that's been overlaid the GW, so care is needed in placing it. These pics show I missed more times than I hit, but still show that an almost completely seamless transition is possible.
What do you think? Am I on to something here?
Lora/LD
Not that this will help , but it may make someone go AHHA! A while back , I was trying to get JRJ plop water to match Pegs brigatine. I never fully finished it (did not darken etc, but basically most of the grunt work was done in PS and then I had to re-insert each FSH file to line up for each S3D...kind of a pain , but perhaps the same technique could be used for Davids (Dedgrens) TPW?
I never was able to get this working 100 percent and have not re-visited...actually forgot all about it!
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx262%2Fsithlrd98%2Fplop-1.jpg&hash=cc31b276317057683d7325afe5b74fe6959c44e9)
Jayson
Previous SC games gave you the option to plop water right out of the box, if memory serves. Why that was ever taken away, I don't know.
But what's stopping people from simply taking the game water textures (or whatever the terminology is) and just making a ploppable version?
It has something to do with the fact that only the surface is the texture.. and the rest is some sort of coded mess. I think Gizmo figured out how to change the sides of the water at the edge of map though...
Well, one solution I can visualise is taking the mod that changes shallow water's transparency, and make it so that the game's water is 100% opaque. Then, only a tiny bit of turbulence would give you a perfect transition. Obviously this would mean that one couldn't possibly use any underwater flora, etc, etc ever again - but it would let you have a good PW/GW transition, I think.
I think what we are going to have to do is create two things: 1.) a process for transitioning above sea level land with below sea level land and 2.) a set of PW tools that will make the transition between PW and GW as close to seamless as we can get it.
One of the big issues is waves. I have seen some gorgeous PW/GW transitions, but they had waves turned off. I don't know about you, but I want waves on those areas on my seashore that do not adjoin to PW. That what's happens in RL after all...waves occur when sea water meets land. However, waves don't hapen when rivers meet the sea because the change in bottom elevation is not enought to craete waves. Do a short search on wave dynamics and you will find this is true. Waves form according to the shape of the land underlying the shore. The shallower the shore, the less waves.
So, if we are to achieve a transition between PW and GW, we have to deal with the waves issue. I have found that one can eliminate waves at shorelines if one makes the slope of the shore shallow enough. This, I have found, is hard to do without extensive micro-terraforming. If one has te patience for this, then it may be possble to transition PW to GW using PW tiles that 1.) can plop under water and 2.) come close to matching the GW. The Tahoe PW and the Brigantine GW match pretty good, but are dependent on orientation of view. I have not been able to find any other combination or PW and GW that melds as well, and believe me, I have tried.
The best way to solve a challenge is to identify the obstacles. I think we are working to that end. I think this is what we have discovered so far:
1.) We have to find a way to either disguise or eleimate waves at PW/GW transitions
2.) We have to find a way to match colors between GW and PW
3.) We have to define a process for achieving this trnsition.
In our own ways, we are all working on trying to solve these issues. My purpose in starting this thread was to get a dialog going and hoepefully folks wpuld start working together.
This is, in many ways, the last big hurdle to overcome, for those of us determined to create naturalistic landscapes in our game. We have what I think is a great start going...but I think we still have a long way to go. Just my opinion...
Lora/LD
I know what you mean, in that regard. There shoudn't be any turbulence at the point where a stream (for instance) meets the ocean on flat (or flattish) land, so there shouldn't be any waves or turbulence at that junction. Perhaps, a BAT could be made using the same texture as the PW, with an increasing transparency, that could be placed heading out to sea, that would allow a smooth transition. It would, however, probably have to be lot based, for the orientation et cetera. Also, using the Tahoe PW is basically out of the question, as pegasus is generally disinclined to share such things.
Lora,
I think this is it in a nutshell.
QuoteThe best way to solve a challenge is to identify the obstacles. I think we are working to that end. I think this is what we have discovered so far:
1.) We have to find a way to either disguise or eleimate waves at PW/GW transitions
2.) We have to find a way to match colors between GW and PW
3.) We have to define a process for achieving this trnsition.
In our own ways, we are all working on trying to solve these issues. My purpose in starting this thread was to get a dialog going and hoepefully folks wpuld start working together.
I think #2 will be the most challenging because of all the different water mods out there. I know that was probably one of the very first things I changed all those years ago. You know, to make it not the "vanillia" game. There was a time I would switch water mods every other time I played. I now play almost exclusively with one of MAS-sans great water textures. It is just transparent enough to show wharves and seawalls well, but it does mask a bit of the underwater flora. Untill I see a better one come along I'll most likely keep this one.
---Gaston
(coming from one who doesn't know) I just saw a thread about "transparency maps" or "opacity maps" ..forget which.. in the last 24 hours .. but it blended over/under textures on a beach.. perhaps someone who knows about that thread might try it on water?
edit: I've come across that thread here (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=3507.msg263832#msg263832) so you can see what I meant
SC4BOY says:
Quoteit blended over/under textures on a beach.. perhaps someone who knows about that thread might try it on water?
You might be on to something there. You tickled my brain with that thought and so I went back and looked at a region I was fooling around with years ago, a custom map of the Palm Island in Dubai that I remembered plopping a lot of beaches on. So I fired up my game, loaded the region and found the beach areas. I also found a Beach tile in my Parks/Rewards menu and started plopping it, but it was different from the beaches I had plopped years ago. So I peered into the folder I keep all my custom content in and found a subfloder titled Beaches, opened it up and found a packet of custom beach tiles. I installed them in my plug-ins folder and again played a round with them for a few minutes and this is what I came up with:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.imageshack.us%2Fimg15%2F6879%2Fsoutheastjun70512492441.png&hash=b23360c2b9a3d684351af7eecb0a782f0cbf20e0)
Doesn't look like much, I know. But, there is a tile included in this set called Underwater Sand that plops under water (duh) that could be promising. Perhaps it's color and/or texture could be modified? Also in the pack is a Link tile just one cell wide that could be a "base" for transitioning from PW to GW? There are also tiles designed to go around terrain corners, both inside and outside.
Just some ideas.
Lora/LD
PS: What about changing the color of jeronij's "dirty water" plop from brown to a blue that matches his blue TPW? That might be something worth looking into. How would one go about doing something like that? I'd be happy to give it a try, if someone gave me a couple of hints...
You weren't keen on a BATted piece to fade away? You would plop it on a lot at or near sea level, and join the PW to it (the PW and join piece share a texture at one end) and it appears to disappear.
I don't think the dirty water plop can be changed easily, as it is the water pollution effect from the game's original set of such things, is it not?
QuoteYou weren't keen on a BATted piece to fade away? You would plop it on a lot at or near sea level, and join the PW to it (the PW and join piece share a texture at one end) and it appears to disappear.
joelyboy, I have no objections to the idea at all, just didn't respond to it because I am too embarrassed to admit I don't really know what a BAT is. But, if someone can create a lot that plops under game water and over game created waves that matches the color of plop water on the land side and game water on the sea side, I'm all for it. However, I see the challenges as being many folded. 1.) there are many PWs out there and folks make new ones all the time, so you'd have to create a transition piece for each one. 2.) there are just as many water mods out there that change the color and texture of the GW as there are PWs, so I think that would effectively square the amount of tiles you'd need to create 3.) GW color varies tremendously depending on the slope of the terrain under it. Shallow beaches are very light in color, almost white/clear, while more steeply sloped beaches are darker, quicker, as one moves away from shore. If the tile you're imagining is very slope tolerant this wouldn't be an issue (I don't think) but so far creating slope tolerant PW has been another one of those ongoing challenges. Related to this is the fact that lots of folks have built sea walls where the edges of thier cities are right on the shoreline, and so they have no beaches at all. Rivers that join the sea under these circumstances are usually confined within made made banks, concrete, usually, and that's yet another variable that would need to be considered.
QuoteI don't think the dirty water plop can be changed easily, as it is the water pollution effect from the game's original set of such things, is it not?
I have no idea how jeronij made his dirty water plop or if it's in any way related to the game's automatic coloring of polluted water near industrial areas. However, I have PM'd jeronij to ask him if it would be possible to change the color of the plop from brown to a blue that would match his TPW, but so far have not received any reply.
How does one take a custom work created by someone else and then tweak it a bit to thier own personal wants/needs? Is it possible to do so? Is it ethical to do so without first asking the original creator of the work if it's OK to do so? I am pretty sure I have all the tools necessary, just haven't a clue in the world how to use them to either modify existing stuff or create new stuff.
Lora/LD
Quote from: ldvger on August 03, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
Is it possible to do so? Is it ethical to do so without first asking the original creator of the work if it's OK to do so?
It is possible, and ethical, as long as you don't release your tweaked stuff without permission.
Quote from: joelyboy911 on August 02, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
You weren't keen on a BATted piece to fade away? You would plop it on a lot at or near sea level, and join the PW to it (the PW and join piece share a texture at one end) and it appears to disappear.
This is something I have been thinking about for a while and had a small play last night. My results weren't much but I am going to have another crack at it later in the month. I started with the bank pieces but should really have started with the water. I'll post pics here if I get anywhere.
Is there a mayor mode PW using the textures of your canals, diggis? They are from (Cal's?) canals aren't they? (Or something?).
Quote from: ldvger on August 03, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
joelyboy, I have no objections to the idea at all, just didn't respond to it because I am too embarrassed to admit I don't really know what a BAT is. But, if someone can create a lot that plops under game water and over game created waves that matches the color of plop water on the land side and game water on the sea side, I'm all for it. However, I see the challenges as being many folded. 1.) there are many PWs out there and folks make new ones all the time, so you'd have to create a transition piece for each one. 2.) there are just as many water mods out there that change the color and texture of the GW as there are PWs, so I think that would effectively square the amount of tiles you'd need to create 3.) GW color varies tremendously depending on the slope of the terrain under it. Shallow beaches are very light in color, almost white/clear, while more steeply sloped beaches are darker, quicker, as one moves away from shore. If the tile you're imagining is very slope tolerant this wouldn't be an issue (I don't think) but so far creating slope tolerant PW has been another one of those ongoing challenges. Related to this is the fact that lots of folks have built sea walls where the edges of thier cities are right on the shoreline, and so they have no beaches at all. Rivers that join the sea under these circumstances are usually confined within made made banks, concrete, usually, and that's yet another variable that would need to be considered.
Point 1, is quite right. 100%. and this is a challenge to be faced.
Point 2, my idea was that it would be transparent at the other end so the GW, no matter what would look normal.
Point 3, I'm not sure about all this, but I might know a way to increase slope tolerance: when I was playing with making my aircraft, I experimented with custom LODs (you don't need to worry what this means, as I can't explain what it does very well myself) and setting it to align itself to the slope it was placed on. I think, when I placed it with this complex LOD that it bent itself over the changing slope I put it on. I will have to play with this, as it might open some new possibilities - not sure if anyone else has tried it yet?
Oh and, you had no need to be embarrassed, a BAT is just another name for the building or prop produced in the Building Architect Tool. Every custom lot using non-maxis content contains one.
No idea, I haven't made one. And Yes, it's Cal's Canals. I'm trying to do a transition piece from my lots to the water that looks natural.
Well, I spent a good portion of my day yesterday reading over the BAT Essentials tutorial over on ST with the thought that I may need to finally learn how to create my own custom content rather than depend on others to do so for me, also to see if maybe I could learn how to tweak other custom content to my personal needs. Looks like an impressive tool, but about 1/3 of the way through the tutorial all the ullustrations turned into boxes with X's in them. :(
Joelyboy, if you think you can BAT a transition piece, go for it! My reasons for reading the BAT stuff yesterday was to see if I could learn how to do something like what you are describing and if you already know how to BAT stuff, you'll beat me to the finish line by miles.
And Diggis, welcome to the discussion, nice to have another person join the group, nice to learn you are also working on this PW/GW transition issue. I don't use canals (or at least, I haven't so far) and I wonder of your canals use GW or PW, as I've seen it done both ways. Also, do your canals run all the way to the sea? Are your seashores constrained by sea walls or do they have more naturalistic beaches? And yes, please post some pics of your attempts, it helps us all to see how others are working to resolve this challenge.
I've been continueing to play around with the idea of extending the very low level terrain that comprise the PW river bed out to sea. I've been using the level tool at increasingly smaller setting the further I get from land and creating braided "channels" and slowly lowering the land level that's in the sea at the same time. Then I paint it over with jeronij's brown TPW so it looks like muddy/silty water. The TPW also plops over the waves, disguising them, which takes care of that little problem. I read someplace that the TPW actually plops 4m ABOVE land and that there is a way to adjust that setting. It's that setting that allows us to use the TPW over GW to a depth of 4m before it stops, so I was wondering what would happen if that setting were raised for transition pieces? We could use TPW from land out to sea to a depth of 4m, then switch to a TPW that was usable over GW up to a depth of say 100m (just pulling a random number out of the air) or to whatever depth the GW is when it becomes opaque. The depth at which GW becomes opaque varies by whichever water mod one has installed, but I remember reading not too long ago (maybe even here) that PEG's Brigantine becomes opaque at around elevation 231, which if sea level is 250, would be 19 m below sea level, right?
I have had very little luck plopping other PW's under GW, but I know that is a method some folks are using with some success, especially if waves are turned off.
I'll see if I can post some pics later of some of my attempts.
Lora/LD
Lora,
I'm not really doing these for TPW or PW. I have done lot based streams and always have wanted a natural transition to game water. I've just had a wee play with my stuff and have the following images for you:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn110%2FDiggis%2FBAT%2FWater1.jpg&hash=c19dc3e2f86d31b908df82d16a6ae7f8614b170d)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi302.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn110%2FDiggis%2FBAT%2FWater2.jpg&hash=83e097239246fe41c4b161c2d1215603397906ca)
This is simply a transparent BAT of the water texture I use overhanging game water to look like it is dissapearing. The trick now is to get the banks looking right too and then get the right place to stop my river bottom texture (which is what is causing the abrupt change from opaque to transparent)
Diggis-
your work is fantastic and by far the best, or close to the best, I have seen so far. Yes, you have some issues left to resolve, but great job, great job!
I got an answer back from jeronij todat from my PM to him and I thought I would share it with you all, being as how most of what he says makes almost no sense to me at all. I am hoping it will maybe ring some bells in your minds and maybe help you. This was the answer to my PM to him:
Hello Lora,
Sorry for the late reply, I am quite short of time atm...
I fear that I cant help you with that actually, but I'll try to give you some steps to get your own TPW as easy as possible.
1st search the LEX for my TPW models
2nd render them (or ask someone to render them for you) with the desired texture (dont change the material parameters, only the texture)
3rd activate the transparency using cogeo's last tool SC4 Model Tweaker (I am sorry, I dont have a link at hand atm, but it is found here somewhere in the forums. Not sure if it has been uploaded to the LEX
This is all gibberish to me, as I know zero about creating custom content (but am trying to learn). I post this with the hope/thought that it might mean sometning to someone else paying attention to this thread and that it might give them an "AHA" momonet.
My PM to him asked him about 1.) modifying his TPW's and 2.) modifying his "Dirty Water" plop.
I don't know if this new info helps at all, just hoping it does.
Lora/LD
If I could get access to some of PEG's textures, then this would be so easy (Tahoe is my PW of choice atm.) - of course, I am well aware that this is unlikely, though I would be overjoyed if someone would like to show me something....
What is your current preferred PW? If it's one that has a texture lingering somewhere for other people to use, then I will try making the BAT I described because I don't think anyone quite gets exactly what I mean, though diggis is close to it. I mean for it to be opaque at one end and transparent at the other with a gradual transition - it could be 4 tiles long, and oddly shaped like the pw, or there could be a start a middle and an end piece to make river mouths of any width.
Joelyboy, I am currently using a mix of PW: Edmonton, Tahoe, and jeronij's three TPW's, with emphasis on the blue TPW. To create the illusion of varing depth in my PW streams and rivers, I use Edmonton in the center, then Tahoe to either side of that, then overlay the entire stream with the blue TPW and extend that also to the steam banks. For smaller streams, I just use the Tahoe and the TPW and for yet smaller streams, just the TPW.
Lora/LD
just had an idea, make 1x1 lots that will always put the water prop of the lot about 1 to 2 m above the water, and then transition pieces that fade to transparent that would surround them, understand what I mean, also, found this great gw to pw transition
Quote from: abcvs on May 22, 2009, 03:06:41 AM
Transition - Canal to Game Water
I am very impressed with the PPond to Brigatine transition... in a word... "seamless".
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi211.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb210%2Fabcvs%2FCJ%2FTransition1.jpg&hash=567d042abd0128d2f1b9d910f312eeeeef472537)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi211.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb210%2Fabcvs%2FCJ%2FTransition2.jpg&hash=b0353240626a01c62c5eaa1f68c7597c441f2d71)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi211.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb210%2Fabcvs%2FCJ%2FTransition3.jpg&hash=45d93f342497b84872fb36d8059324765491784a)
OK, OK... I will turn the waves on...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi211.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb210%2Fabcvs%2FCJ%2FTransition4.jpg&hash=a204784c5d4d7057d681f0b68c23d8bc96c3e1d1)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi211.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb210%2Fabcvs%2FCJ%2FTransition5.jpg&hash=531f3ee89a529ab6043925e88edae7fbbe4c7a88)
rdrdrdrd-
I agree that is a gorgeous and seamless PW/GW transition...until the waves are turned on, then it fails my own personal test.
Been a while since I have posted here, been busy with my MD and other stuff. I have begun working with a modder by name of rivit who created a fantastic set of Coastal Water Mods (available for download, you really should check them out, GREAT addition to the GW texture/color options). He and I have been working on a number of small side projects, including PW/GW transition. Right now we are just working on muddy textured PW joining muddy textured GW, as specifically needed for my MD. His latest batch of plops are really very good and I have muddy water plops that run seamlessly from land, down across the beach, and then out to GW to the point of disappearing underwater completely. Still bugs to work out...waves remain an issue. But, we are getting close.
He has also created for me a great set of mud flat beaches which fade underwater very nicely. Many folks are clamoring for these to be released, but there is still work to do on them. Mud is actually very important for realistic depiction of running water to standing water and so far no one has really addressed this lack, so I'm very excited about it.
You can check out some of the early work he's done over on my MD, and my expreiments with it.
Lora/LD
Lora you caught my attention here in what you are wanting to do!! Sorry Ive been outta the "loop" for a while and I am playing catch up... This is right up my alley and I will see what I can play with... What I have done in the past is usually cover up the transition to "Hide" the game water from TPW/PW effect...
Shaun I like what you did there for sure and progress at all?
Well, the little red warning has popped up asking me if I really want to post a reply to this topic, being as how it's been over 120 days since the last reply. Hey, I'm typing aren't I, so I guess that answers the question.
I'd like to re-open the discusiion that seemed to be close to bearing fruit last fall on how to transition plop water to game water. I am partly to blame for why this topic kinda slid by the wayside, as I got caught up in other projects. However, I have a new MD started and once again am going to need to figure out how to transition PW to GW. I have not made any personal progress on that particular front since last I posted here, so I am hoping that the 6 months that have elapsed have maybe been illuminating to other players who posted under this topic and seem to be equally interested in solving this bugaboo.
I have made some progress in other areas of learning the mechanics of the game. My buddy rivit, who was so kind and generous with his time last fall, has come to my rescue once again, this time in the role of teacher. I have learned how to create terrain mods and along the way also learned quite a bit about creating new textures and how to insert them into the game. Rivit and I are still in regular correspondence with each other, so it may be that he will be willing to teach me how to move from terrain mods to plop water mods.
Last fall, I had an idea that I discussed with rivit about making a "PW/GW Transition Kit". One of the big challenges of the PW/GW transition is the many, many different colors, textures, and appearances of water we have available to play with, both plop waters and game waters. So I thought that rather than trying to find a combo from existing plops and mods that work well together, maybe we could create a new mod that was both a water mod AND a plop mod in one kit. It would be very restrictive to begin with, of course, because not everyone wants or likes the same kinds of water, but it would be a start. Once made, and if made simply enough, folks who wanted to could "mod the mod" to create thier own unique waters.
After reading all the posts in this thread again this afternoon, I recall that a couple of the problems were 1.) transparency of game water (i.e. the depth of the water at which object under water begin to fade out and cease to be visible and 2.) getting plops to plop under water.
From my recent work with terrain mods, I have learned that game water transparency is easily adjusted. Theorictically, I think it could be possible to make game water crystal clear to the furthest depths of any oceans we could create. It wouldn't be very realistic to do so, but knowing the transparncy of the water is adjustable is a tool we can use. I also recall rivit telling me that it is possible to adjust the elevation above ground level that any plop, including water plops, apply themselves in game. This is one of the ways (I think, anyway) that jeronij was able to create is TPW's...he raised the plops above ground level, which allowed the underlying textures to show through. If I understand this capability correctly, it actually allows us to "layer" plops over each other to some degree. I'm pretty sure rivit did some experimenting with this last fall and found that there are limits as to a.) how much above or below ground level one can plop a plop and b.) how many layers a single game cell will allow to be plopped over or under it. Still, I'm of the opinion that the knowledge of these two important adjustable variables are key to the PW/GW transition.
So...anyone else interesting in once again attempting to tackle this?
Lora/LD
Hi Lora indeed there is a limit but how far and with what textures you use hmmm now that is a good question indeed!! I will follow along and help out as much as i can physicaly here with this as like i said before transition has been my pain for loooong time lol
Pat-
Glad to see you posting here, I remember your interest in this from last fall. Let me run a couple of ideas past you and let me know what you think.
Jeronij's TPW is, so far, the only PW I've found that I can plop under GW. In truth, it actually plops OVER GW, not under it, as the TPW sits 6m (I think) above sea level. This feature allows one to plop it up to -6m...after that, it won't plop. So, one of my ideas is to mod the TPW specifically for use under GW by raising it even further above sea level. If, for instance, one used the 6m TPW on land and then out to sea to -6m, one would then switch over to the 12m TPW to continue further out to sea with the same color and texture as the 6m TPW. This would allow one to plop TPW to -12m.
I've talked a little bit about the variability of transparency of GW, dependent on if and what mod is used, and the setting in the exemplar that controls that feature of GW. I believe the "Brigantine" mod that is so very popular is set to become opaque at -36m. If we created special TPW plops that could go to -36m under GW (Brigantine mod, that is), then I think the transition between GW and PW would be seamless.
I don't know how to mod a TPW, so I can't try this out for myself. However, if anyone else knows how to "reverse engineer" a TPW tile, it seems to me making a couple of special "underwater" TPW plops wouldn't be that difficult.
What do you think? Could this work?
Lora/LD