SC4 Devotion Forum Archives

The NAM Team is currently looking at the various traffic simulators, and we would find it very helpful to know exactly what the usage of these traffic simulators is.  You can help us out by letting us know which traffic simulator you use.  Please vote carefully, as for this poll a vote cannot be changed once it is cast.

It would also be extremely helpful if you could add a post to this thread, as short or long as you want, explaining why you chose the traffic simulator you did.  It would also be extremely helpful if you would mention which other traffic simulator(s) you have used.  If you want to skip the explanation part, and simply list the traffic simulators you have used, that's fine too.  And the whole post is optional, of course; the most important thing is to vote in the poll.  Thanks!

Z Low at the moment.  I had been using Simulator A Hard, and the initial "Alpha" of Simulator B Hard before that. 

-Alex

I'm using Z Medium 1.1 right now. I haven't played all that many of my older cities since installing it, but I can definitely say that I've seen far fewer No Job Zots (though they've started coming back in my central city quad).

I use simulator Z, for it is said that is the best one to use with CAM installed. Why exactly is this poll? To eliminate a couple of Simulators? In that case, at least allow players to still use the game default one, if they, for some reason, like it.

Regards,
Korot

I'm using Z high with park&ride.

The park&ride feature adds some realism while the high capacities go well with the CAM.

I switched from A Hard to Z low just last week. In some cities I did hardly see any change and in other cities commute time went up and bus usage and pedestrians increased.

Commute time is erroneously calculated in Simulators A and B, so it's not comparable to the commute time reported by Simulator Z.  Even in Simulator Z, commute time is not completely accurate due to a game bug that is not fixable.

Hello...

     I have used and tested just about all the above mentioned traffic sim's at one point or another. Currently
im using traffic sim Z in my game some place between low and medium difficulty settings. For multiple reasons...
traffic Sim Z is clearly the best of all the traffic sims ever created, and trust me folks second place isnt close..
Especially for those users using the CAM like myself, you would be clearly out of your mind and know very little
about how traffic sims work, if you didnt use traffic sim Z with the CAM..

       I could not thank Mr. Z enough for all the time and hard work he has invested in making the most efficient
and high quality traffic Sim that this game has ever see,,

Thanks, Brian

Z medium.....but i have to admit that i haven't really played the game since i started modding. 

choco: And that was how many years ago?  :D

Regards,
Korot

Sim Z Low for me!  ()stsfd()

Z here, not the park and ride though

Jonathan

I use z medium, mainly because I am planning on downloading CAM.... (and I'm a middle of the road kinda gal, hence the medium selection)

  ()flower() ()flower() Big bouquets of thanks for all that you do to keep this game developing far beyond Maxis/EA's wildest dreams!!   

&bis& &bis&

Simulator Z Medium (or was it High? I don't remember :P) BTM version.

Not like I would be the one having this problem ::) but where might one go to find which traffic simulator they have in their plugin folder?

projectadam: Plugins\Network Addon Mod\Plugins, and it should be named something like "NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_[letter]_[Low/Med/High/etc.].dat"

Thanks deathtopumpkins, I do not want to get off the original reason why this was posted but thought that I should address this now since it is directly related to this post.

I have another folder in my plugins named "NAM" and contains files such as (NetworkAddonMod_Rural_Roads_SAM_Plugin.dat, RuralHighwayMod.dat, zz-RHW_3.24_PathFix.dat, NetworkAddonMod_Automata_Plugin_Automata24.dat, and .../Traffic_Plugin_A,Z mediums and highs). I am guessing that I created this folder to put in the extra content that is related to the NAM and am guessing that this might lead to problems so I am wondering what the best fix for this would be. If you can help me out, please respond with a PM so that this topic does not hijack the original thread and I can delete this out of the message once someone has answered this.

Getting back to the topic, I use Z Ultra. The reason I did this is that I am unhappy with the way that SC4 did the transportation layout. To me roads should be used more like highways and streets should be the primary thing used even in CBD. Avenues seem more like BLVDs or major streets in a city and should be used sparingly as major traffic corridors. I believe that Z Ultra allows streets to be used much more frequently and mirrors somewhat of a real life application. I also believe that pedestrians should be willing to walk a lot further than the Maxis traffic simulator allows.

I haven't played a whole lot lately due to the lack of time, but I'm still using a modified "Better Pathfinding" simulator that was introduced with one of the first NAM versions. What I changed was tripling the street capacities to 300, doubled the max. allowed commute time and (more recently) changed the "dirt road" (aka RHW) properties to the values that were suggested in one of the newer simulators (probably A, I don't remember anymore). I learned to build my cities properly and rarely have any abandonment or excessive traffic problems, and mass transit is used heavily, if placed properly. I haven't tried any of the other simulators yet, and looking at my free time, I doubt I have time to do that ever, even if I'd be intrigued to see if another simulator works even better. As I said, so far my modified "Better Pathfinding" simulator works fine for me, and there is no real need to change it.

I have been using A-Medium ever since it was created in NAM. My sims can travel everywhere inside the city tile they live in and it will only report medium transit time (depending on the fast route they take). Travel to a neighbor city til automatically gives long commute time but they seem not to abandon their homes often at all. I have only noticed a very small amount abandon after a certain period of time. Only things they travel to another city tile for are usually for Dirty Industry or Agriculture since I do not let either grow with a city with sims living in it.

I used the standard Maxis traffic simulator from 2003 to 2007. Most of my cities are build with this simulator and they work fine. Since 2007, I use "Perfect Pathfinding with double capacity", because the other tested simulators caused problems for my existing cities. I am not sure which letter it is, maybe E?

I flipped between A and Z when Z first came out. Now, I pretty much stick with Z as it seems to handle mass transit better; at least in the type of cities I build.

I used to be a C simulator user, but I had RHW-6 and I didn't know that I had one of the incompatible simulators. I made the jump to Z Ultra. Much less commute time abandonment.

Z medium, I have used A in the past but Z is more realistic, the sims think more.

essentailly I have only used two simulators.... The Better Pathfinding one and Z medium simulator. I liked the better pathing finding one when Z first came out... and a lil' before that, since I started playing again sometime before the release of z. Well z in NAM anyhow. I really liked using that one for a while but wasn't really satisfied with how the trafic was flowing.
   That's when I switched to Z, as the others did not hold my interest in the readme description. I believe that is when Z 1.1 was in development I'm not sure, but I rather like the description and mainly how it functions. It made my cities look a bit more clean choice wise, in a way allowing all kinds of transportation being used equally to some degree. Well for the most part, as I kinda' noticed some changes within a year. The sims would actually fan out per say in the use of my multi-networks laid before them. Plus I enjoy the fact that buses are actually counted towards conjestion, creating a better feel which networks were being used, and by roughly how much. That would be the reason I stuck with the Z Simulator.
   I do plan on using Z Low and High eventually but medium suffices for my current city needs and play time. And thank you very much for making and developing the simulator that helps out city development quite a bit better, even if it is indirectly. Transit counts as part of the city after all. :)

I used Z when i last played the game properly. it seemed to handle fine with 4 large tiles.

I use Z high and am very pleased with it.  I'm a fan of mass transit and Z handles that the best IMO.  &apls

The poll results tip in your favor, z.

The City & County and Capitalis (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=8447.0) has proudly stuck with Simulator Z ever since December 2008.   :thumbsup:  I don't remember how long I've kept it at Ultra though.

[Edit]

Since I started using NAM, I've used a variety of the included simulators (and tweaked them to my liking), experimenting with capacities, speeds, commute distances, etc.  I settled on Simulator A when that came out as an option.

Ever since I bought SC4 Deluxe, I've been trying to recreate the Hawaiian island of O'ahu in the game.  Late last year, I ran into problems with abandonment (because of eternal commuters from removing the Residential Halver) and traffic simulation (neither optimal IMO nor vaguely resembled RL).  Then I found z's thread, and I received help from both my problems in there.  Without Simulator Z, I don't believe I could have finished building the island because decent multi-tile commutes would not be possible without it.

Because SimCity is not real life, there are game limitations (no traffic sim at the region level) and the simulator isn't custom-tailored, traffic isn't going to act the way I want it to.  Simulator Z has done a fine job of being the best thing out there (yet), to get the traffic simulator to contribute postively to the overall SimCity game experience.

Frankly I can't recall the earlier version, but I've used the Z medium version since it came out--as the city I'm building is large but medium-density (no CAM) and has an extensive tram network supplemented with subway in the densest areas.

Quote from: z on August 18, 2009, 04:22:46 AM
Commute time is erroneously calculated in Simulators A and B, so it's not comparable to the commute time reported by Simulator Z.  Even in Simulator Z, commute time is not completely accurate due to a game bug that is not fixable.

The graph doesnt change unless there is a physical change in the commute time.  If you are talking about the Commute Time Graph multiplier, only the numbers on the side of the graph change not the physical shape of the graph itself.  I found in my testing long ago that it didn't matter what value I had in the multiplier that it never effecte the physical shape of the graph because (I assume) that it is generated off of a raw calculation and the multiplier is just there to make it seem more realistic time-wise.

You can't really compare Commute Time Graphs with other Simulators anyways, because they will always have something small that is different, such as speeds of a network or capacity changes, or whatever which will ultimately change how it works overall.  There is no one Simulator which is "the Best", but a number that work well, with slight differences which will help each individual city in it's own way.

Quote from: jplumbley on August 22, 2009, 10:41:32 PM
The graph doesnt change unless there is a physical change in the commute time.  If you are talking about the Commute Time Graph multiplier, only the numbers on the side of the graph change not the physical shape of the graph itself.  I found in my testing long ago that it didn't matter what value I had in the multiplier that it never effecte the physical shape of the graph because (I assume) that it is generated off of a raw calculation and the multiplier is just there to make it seem more realistic time-wise.

The multiplier you're referring to is "Trip Length to Minutes Display Multiplier," which would appear to affect the scale of the commute time graph, but in reality, as you also discovered, it does absolutely nothing at all!  The shape of the graph usually doesn't change unless there's an actual change in commute times, but there's an important exception, which I will describe below.

QuoteYou can't really compare Commute Time Graphs with other Simulators anyways, because they will always have something small that is different, such as speeds of a network or capacity changes, or whatever which will ultimately change how it works overall.  There is no one Simulator which is "the Best", but a number that work well, with slight differences which will help each individual city in it's own way.

I found through experiments that the problem is somewhat different from that.  The scale of the graph can be changed arbitrarily by including a copy of the commute time exemplar and changing the parameter "Graph Plot scale," which is what Mott did in his personal versions of Simulator B.  It's actually possible to get this to reflect the real commute time completely accurately - but only if you're working in a city not connected to any others.  As soon as connections to other cities are established, the proper number for "Graph Plot scale" changes, and becomes dependent on the number of commuters to other cities.  This means that it changes dynamically over time, and that's why the numbers for this graph can never be perfectly correct.  Even the shape is significant only to the extent that the number of inter-city commuters does not change significantly.  This is clearly a game bug, but it happens to be how the graph actually works.

If you want to read about the experiments I did to figure out how this all worked, you can find them in this post. (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5382.msg189449#msg189449)

I've currently got Sim B Hard in my game... had it in there for ages, just haven't really gotten around to changing to a newer version. Though it's generally worked well for me, so I might just leave it. Or I might change to Sim Z, I'll see when I start a new region. :P

Im using Z low right now and am very pleased with it, but for some reason, a vast majority of my residentials gets the No Jobs sign, then it diassapears, and then comes back several game months later.

I use A Easy and I'm very happy :)

I've been using Z Low for the moment, but I'm still looking for something with even lower capacities, so I can stress my cities even more and make finding good solutions for traffic options harder.

Quote from: Hadrean2 on August 23, 2009, 10:43:46 PM
Im using Z low right now and am very pleased with it, but for some reason, a vast majority of my residentials gets the No Jobs sign, then it diassapears, and then comes back several game months later.

I've seen this happen occasionally; in fact, I was able to get it to happen reliably in the test setup that I described in the post that I linked to at the bottom of my previous post.  The setup was a simple city with residential Sims connected to a commercial are via a long train track.  The stations at each end were the standard Maxis train station.  Everything would go fine for several months, and then no-job zots would appear above all the residences.  The query tool showed that no Sims were taking the train any more.  The next month, the zots went away, the Sims were back on the train, and everything was fine.

This is actually not a traffic simulator problem of any kind.  Instead, it is one of the infamous TE Lot Bugs, the source of which is deep inside the game, and beyond our reach.  Every so often certain types of mass transit stations in certain orientations stop working briefly.  This is fairly rare, and you need a specific configuration to get this to happen.  Fortunately, as long as the no-job zots disappear before buildings are abandoned, this is harmless.  (In other TE lot bugs, certain types of mass transit stations don't work at all for certain types of traffic, but that's something different, and there are workarounds for those.)

But now, the answer you've all been waiting for...  ;D

Quote from: caspervg on August 24, 2009, 12:12:45 AM
I've been using Z Low for the moment, but I'm still looking for something with even lower capacities, so I can stress my cities even more and make finding good solutions for traffic options harder.

Ah, so the four capacity levels aren't enough?  And then I know people who want a capacity level somewhere between Low and Medium.  You don't think we can give everybody exactly the capacity we want, do you?

Well, actually, we can.  ;D

How would you like a tweaking tool that would allow you to multiply your network capacities by essentially whatever you wanted?  And to make it useful, we'd calibrate it in tenths of the current capacity.  So you could reduce your capacity to a tenth of the current Low level if you wanted, or anywhere in between.  Would that be good enough?

But you know, adjusting capacities is just so last generation.  I mean, after a while, it just gets BORING, doesn't it?  Sure we can do that, but how about some other choices as well?

For example, you could increase or decrease the proportion of buses to cars, again, in small increments.  Or create special bus lanes for highways (although we couldn't show that with the automata, but the effect would be there).

Or if you want more challenge, you could increase the cost of maintaining the various networks.  You get to pick which ones.  Make subways really expensive to use, as they are in the real world.  Triple the costs of building roads.  Or make them free, if you want.  You could make your ferries traveling riverboat casinos, and charge the Sims §100 just to board.  That would solve your financial problems fast.  This wouldn't deter the Sims from taking ferries; they just don't know the value of money.

Similarly, you could change bus fares, subway fares, whatever, up or down.  There are so many possibilities here for customizing the difficulty level.

And then you could change the intersection effect, effectively making more or fewer stoplights and stop signs in your cities, making traffic flow smoother, or making a complete mess of it.

[Clint Eastwood voice] So caspervg, I gotta ask you.  Do you really want all these options?  Do ya?  Do ya? [/Clint Eastwood voice]

Quote from: caspervg on August 24, 2009, 12:12:45 AM
I've been using Z Low for the moment, but I'm still looking for something with even lower capacities, so I can stress my cities even more and make finding good solutions for traffic options harder.

You only need just a little bit of knowledge to use the Ill Live reader program to bring your capacities downward
a bit giving yourself a tougher challenge.. And you will still be able to keep all the great attributes of Sim Z ..

brian

Quote from: z on August 24, 2009, 02:59:11 AM
[Clint Eastwood voice] So caspervg, I gotta ask you.  Do you really want all these options?  Do ya?  Do ya? [/Clint Eastwood voice]

*gasp* Please say yes Casper!

$%Grinno$%

Under extreme pressure of RickD, I would have to say yes, that does sound like an excellent idea.

QuoteHow would you like a tweaking tool that would allow you to multiply your network capacities by essentially whatever you wanted?  And to make it useful, we'd calibrate it in tenths of the current capacity.  So you could reduce your capacity to a tenth of the current Low level if you wanted, or anywhere in between.  Would that be good enough?

I think I can safely say that calibrating the system to tenths of the current capacity would be a pretty good setting. After all, I don't think having a capacity of less than 900 for a Maxis Highway is very realistic. I, for one, would heavily experiment with this system and try to fully use it.

QuoteOr if you want more challenge, you could increase the cost of maintaining the various networks.  You get to pick which ones.  Make subways really expensive to use, as they are in the real world.  Triple the costs of building roads.  Or make them free, if you want.  You could make your ferries traveling riverboat casinos, and charge the Sims §100 just to board.  That would solve your financial problems fast.  This wouldn't deter the Sims from taking ferries; they just don't know the value of money.

Now your really talking! That's nuts. I really do love the idea of easily tweaking those settings. Maybe I can finally realize something I always wanted - having fairly correct expenses for road building. Say building a kilometer-strech of road costs $1.600.000, that would mean building 16 m of road (one tile) would cost about $25.600. Would it be possible to set this tool to make one tile of Maxis Road to cost 25.600 simdollar? I know, it's not in scale with in-game costs, but since it would be only me using it, that shouldn't be an issue?

Z, I think this new tool is every roadgeek's dreams come true. I'd love the opportunity to adjust fares, or indeed any parameters I want, in any way I want. Making the tool easy to use (at least, easier than Reader) would put transit system customization in the reach of just about anyone. I say go for it!

Also, I want to add my own $0.02 about getting plagues of no-job zots in certain neighborhoods. I've been experiencing this very problem in one of my cities - things are fine for a few months, then BAM! Every house in the new subdivision has a zot hovering over it like some dark cloud of doom and anguish, if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, in my case the zots usually stick around long enough to cause mass abandonment (although it's not immediately obvious since I use a no-dilapidation mod). Unlike the situation you described, though, these new neighborhoods have more than one connection to the rest of town, although these connections all have RTMT bus stops on them and cross railroads, IIRC. Is there another thread somewhere that explains this conundrum and its workaround (i.e. which station orientations to avoid) that I can read, so I don't hijack this thread?

Quote from: b22rian on August 24, 2009, 03:52:09 AM
You only need just a little bit of knowledge to use the Ill Live reader program to bring your capacities downward
a bit giving yourself a tougher challenge.. And you will still be able to keep all the great attributes of Sim Z ..

I'm afraid I have to strongly recommend against this approach in general.  Although it's true that it's easy to do, the problem is that it's too easy to change the settings in a way that reduces the efficiency of the simulator, or worse.  It's also too easy to make an innocent mistake that messes things up.  That's why these settings are going to be moved into a configuration tool, where it will not be possible to make improper configurations.

If you really want to change your capacities now and can't wait for the configuration tool, then you can use the Reader, but it is essential that all network capacities be changed by exactly the same proportion.

Quote from: caspervg on August 24, 2009, 06:53:41 AM
Now your really talking! That's nuts.

In the NAM documentation, at the end of the Q&A chapter, is the following:

QuoteQ: SimCity is just a game, all this just for a game, are you nuts?

A: Absolutely. :P

So as you can see, it's a job requirement for being on the NAM Team.  :P

QuoteI really do love the idea of easily tweaking those settings. Maybe I can finally realize something I always wanted - having fairly correct expenses for road building. Say building a kilometer-strech of road costs $1.600.000, that would mean building 16 m of road (one tile) would cost about $25.600. Would it be possible to set this tool to make one tile of Maxis Road to cost 25.600 simdollar? I know, it's not in scale with in-game costs, but since it would be only me using it, that shouldn't be an issue?

As I mentioned in my previous post, it's monthly costs that can be tweaked, not plop costs.  The reason for this is that although the plop cost for network tiles is accessible, it's often tied up in exemplars with properties that are changed by other mods, so it's risky to modify those exemplars.  But the monthly costs exist completely within the traffic simulator.  And realistically, cities don't have bundles of cash sitting around for big construction projects anyway.  So the monthly costs can be considered payments on interest-only bonds that the cities issue to build the networks.  But you'll be able to set these monthly costs to essentially anything, and you can change them any time the game isn't running.

Quote from: woodb3kmaster on August 24, 2009, 04:53:03 PM
Also, I want to add my own $0.02 about getting plagues of no-job zots in certain neighborhoods. I've been experiencing this very problem in one of my cities - things are fine for a few months, then BAM! Every house in the new subdivision has a zot hovering over it like some dark cloud of doom and anguish, if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, in my case the zots usually stick around long enough to cause mass abandonment (although it's not immediately obvious since I use a no-dilapidation mod). Unlike the situation you described, though, these new neighborhoods have more than one connection to the rest of town, although these connections all have RTMT bus stops on them and cross railroads, IIRC. Is there another thread somewhere that explains this conundrum and its workaround (i.e. which station orientations to avoid) that I can read, so I don't hijack this thread?

I don't think your problem is with stations.  Try going without the no-dilapidation mod and see what happens.  In general, a lot of the older mods that were designed to improve performance in the early days are not only no longer necessary, but often conflict with the NAM.  The descriptions of most of such mods has been updated to reflect this.  So I would recommend that you get rid of any other performance-related mods and see how things go.  If you still have problems, you can ask about them in the NAM Traffic Simulator Z and Data View Help (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=6812.0) thread.

---

I've thought of one other tweak that I can add, which is to allow the players to adjust the level of vehicle pollution on a very fine basis.  The constant that controls this controls all vehicles, though; there isn't a separate one for each vehicle type.

   This all sounds like an interesting idea, and I like that last one you've added to the list. Vehicle polution levels would be a definate interest for me... Among other ones you have listed, especially the bus lane traffic one. I am definately patient enough to wait for this program to be finished, however I do have a qutestion though.
   How would it go about changing values? the program that is. Would it be making new files or overwriting a property or poperties in one?

This would most likely be done by the NAM Tool, which creates new files that take precedence over existing ones.

I use Z high since quite a while, on mature as well as developing cities of various sizes, with great satisfaction. If I had more time I would use medium or low settings on smaller cities. Like many others, I value very much all the work that is being put into Simulator Z and I am quite interested in the further developments.

  Thank you z. Definately will get it when available... So then it will be a plugin to the SC4 NAM Tool? or an update? either way I like the progress you've made... :)

I'm still discussing this with GoaSkin, but the idea is that it would be an update to the NAM Tool.

   Alright, I just keep an eye for its' completion then. :)

Sounds good.

It seems, though, that I have somehow managed to hijack my own thread.  ()what()  So to leave this thread to its original purpose, further discussion of Simulator Z enhancements should go at the end of the Traffic Simulator Z Development (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5382.msg270434#new) thread.  I've just made a new post there that those who have been following the configuration tool discussion here might be interested in.