I recently installed the BRT-WIMP Industrial shore lots. I have used the old version for a couple of years without incident. I have re-read and re-verified that I have the latest and most up-to=date dependencies specified in the enclosed htm doc's. I replaced the old lots and exited with save, but on re-entry of the small city-tile, it crashed to desktop within about 10 seconds.
Luckily I had saved the file awhile back so only lost about 3 weeks of work Have you backed up your region lately? :). I re-entered and after demolishing the old lots, releveled the shoreline. I began to install each lot, save and exit, and re-enter to isolate the problem lots. Those lots that I had absolute CTD's on were as follows:
4x4 INNER CORNER
2x4 "storage" section
2x4 "cable" section
Anyone have any idea why these lots causes CTD's? Whatever causes it was changed at the last revision as I had the exact same lots from the old set. Of course in each instance of the crash, Windows wrote a .mdmp file in the SC4 "Exception Reports" folder. I have no knowledge of how to get any useful information from these reports
If you need more info please feel free to ask. The tile is fairly small and sparsely developed having only about 17k R, 4k C and 8k I.
The doc's state that there are 45 lots, but I have 47. I have not tried ALL lots, but I can confirm that the following DO NOT cause a problem. Perhaps that will give more hints as to the problem.
2x3 end right
4x4 OC
1x4 straight
3x4 ramp
4x4 ramp
3x4 straight
2x4 straight
2x3 end left
2x3 transition left
Transition 3 to 2 stairs
4x4 Diner
I believe I tested all of the 2-deep lots & no CTD problems, but I didn't keep absolute track
ANOTHER ISSUE... 2x2 Outter Corner only
Another item I noticed was the inability to level the 2x2 outter corner pieces.
The docs warn: "These lots should be placed with the dock edge on the edge of land that has been prepared by levelling carefully. If you place them over the edge of the land they will drop the land height and may not line up correctly."
I tried all I could think of..pushing it "up" until it was JUST going to fail to place, or pulling it "out" until JUST going to fail.. no matter what I tried the end image is "off" by a meter or more. I even tried plopping 1x1 water lots (ship LM LOTS) all along the base of the corner to be sure the "water side" was perfectly flat. The shore was perfectly square and level 250.5m at all points. The water floor is a minimum of 229.5 so there is always a 15m+ drop. Note that every point on the shore edge is exactly 250.5 meters according to "terrainquery".. perfectly level. At no time did the lots alter the shore level as far as I could measure.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg197.imageshack.us%2Fimg197%2F9731%2Fwimpprob2.jpg&hash=8beaf7843b61cf4109531958d57d32b6b321b71a)
Note the mismatch and the level readings of perfectly flat (it is flat everywhere even though only 3 points are shown)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg84.imageshack.us%2Fimg84%2F1159%2Fwimpprob3.jpg&hash=0a612533f94a25366400f601cd181fcc9f978d7d)
Another view of the mismatch. All other pieces I tried are very reasonably matched.
As always, thanks for your help!
RATS! I forgot there is one more problem. I absolutely could not place the 3x3 outter corner. An image illustrating this is here:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg84.imageshack.us%2Fimg84%2F6310%2Fwimpprob.jpg&hash=71affb89239d0294270c3ab2d4fb1924e190668d)
I absolutely COULD NOT place this corner piece. I can place any other outter corner lot from this WIMP set or from other shoreline sets.. but not this one!! Any idea why?
I have DOUBLE checked all these pieces in an existing built up region and had no CTDs at all. I suspect you have a conflict in your plugins that is causing this. Did you have a seaport there that you have not demolished but removed the files for? I see you have a seaport zone showing in the image of the 2x2 misalignment. What port is that?
The 2x2 Outer Corner is slightly misaligned but has always been the same. I do not feel a full update is warranted for one SMALL misalignment.
The 4x4 Outer Corner is showing this problem as you are trying to place it too far out into the sea. The land tile for this is positioned so that the piece has to be correctly placed with the edge of the dock on land.
I obviously miscounted when I made the Readme as you are correct and there are 47 lots.
Quote from: BarbyW on August 30, 2009, 10:05:52 AM
I have DOUBLE checked all these pieces in an existing built up region and had no CTDs at all. I suspect you have a conflict in your plugins that is causing this. Did you have a seaport there that you have not demolished but removed the files for? I see you have a seaport zone showing in the image of the 2x2 misalignment. What port is that?
What you see a tiny piece of there is a garbage disposal lot. I have no "seaport zone" that I know of (I'm not SURE I know what you mean here.. there are no marinas, ferries, seaports, etc). If you like I can itemize all lots there. But as I said, it never, ever crashed with the old WIMP version in. All I did was take out the old WIMP and put in the NEW WIMP. I made no other changes to the city. I expected to see something different on the lots, but they all seemed absolutely identical visually. I guess I'm wondering exactly WHAT WAS changed during the rework? Whatever that change was, now it CTD's.... The LEX simply says "updated to SC4PIM standards" or something like that.
QuoteThe 2x2 Outer Corner is slightly misaligned but has always been the same. I do not feel a full update is warranted for one SMALL misalignment.
Works for me.. I didn't notice a misalignment on the old 2x2, but maybe I just wasn't looking that closely.
QuoteThe 4x4 Outer Corner is showing this problem as you are trying to place it too far out into the sea. The land tile for this is positioned so that the piece has to be correctly placed with the edge of the dock on land.
Thx.. I'll try again just to prove it to myself.. edit: You are correct.. sorry.
QuoteI obviously miscounted when I made the Readme as you are correct and there are 47 lots.
np.. I was afraid somehow something left over from before was causing the problems
Quote from: SC4BOY on August 31, 2009, 10:05:51 PM
What you see a tiny piece of there is a garbage disposal lot. I have no "seaport zone" that I know of (I'm not SURE I know what you mean here.. there are no marinas, ferries, seaports, etc). If you like I can itemize all lots there. But as I said, it never, ever crashed with the old WIMP version in. All I did was take out the old WIMP and put in the NEW WIMP. I made no other changes to the city. I expected to see something different on the lots, but they all seemed absolutely identical visually. I guess I'm wondering exactly WHAT WAS changed during the rework? Whatever that change was, now it CTD's.... The LEX simply says "updated to SC4PIM standards" or something like that.
If you look at the image with the misaligned 2x2 you show two points - one is labelled garbage; the other is labelled Zoned seaport. Exactly which lot is that? What boat is that as I do not recognise it.
There were some cosmetic changes made to remove some dependencies and also they were checked through the X_Tool.
As for the CTDs, I cannot reproduce the problem and can only suggest that you CHECK to make sure you have no outdated or duplicated seaport controllers hiding in your plugins folder.
Quote from: BarbyW on August 31, 2009, 11:50:31 PM
.. show two points - one is labelled garbage; the other is labelled Zoned seaport...
If you mean the pic with property "wimpprob2.jpg" all the lots in a row there are WIMP lots.
The one being pointed at with "seaport" is "BRT WIMPS 2x2 Ramp" The boat in the picture is a plop cargo ship by SOMY
QuoteThere were some cosmetic changes made to remove some dependencies and also they were checked through the X_Tool.
As for the CTDs, I cannot reproduce the problem and can only suggest that you CHECK to make sure you have no outdated or duplicated seaport controllers hiding in your plugins folder.
Barby, I can load the saved city. It contains exactly the same BRT Wimp lots (before changes).... it works fine. I can place one of those noted WIMP lots, it crashes after save. I don't need to do anything else.. If I have a seaport controller in, it is exactly the same controller in that was in before. It didn't crash. Now it does. What this tells me is that the X-tool does something odd. These are non-funtional "eyecandy" lots as far as I can see. Surely it uses no "seaport controller", however I will look at my plugins and identify any controller I may have.
And while I'm thinking about it, why would the X-tool only make certain lots crash the game and not the other lots?
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 01, 2009, 04:22:23 AM
These are non-funtional "eyecandy" lots as far as I can see. Surely it uses no "seaport controller", however I will look at my plugins and identify any controller I may have.
SC4BOY, there have been a number of similar situations with
eye-candy airport and seaport lots causing CTD if you'd have an airport controller or seaport controller, without having all supported functional airports or seaports installed.
One of these cases was reported in
Game Crashes everytime a plop an Airport Billboard (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=6340.0).
Would you have any of Swamper77's or Peg's old seaport controllers anywhere in your plugins?
Well I'm not sure what is or is not a "controller" or what is or is not "out of date" but after doing a search on my entire plugins folder, these are the only files I see that are not clearly props or lots, etc and contain the string "sea" in them. I can give dates for them if needed. If there is some other string you'd like me to search, let me know.
SeaView Query (0xD49EA570).dat
z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat
RT_SeaplaneBase.dat
PEG-CDK_SEAWALL-KIT_VOL1.DAT
PEG-CDK3_Seaport_RESOURCE.dat
JS_Seawalls_Props.dat
JS_SeaWalls_Resource.dat
Independent of whether or not these are "broken" or "out of date" I don't think we are making steps forward when we use a tool that takes a set of eye-candy lots that worked perfectly well and caused no problems and "modify" those lots to turn out lots which cause CTD's. (at least not in my 4.5 meg plugins folder, nor have I read of problems with theses lots before.. perhaps you know of problems?)
IT seem it would behoove us to instead find out WHY a lot that worked (and not all lots, but at least the 3 listed above) and now cause CTD's and WHY the X-tool or whatever caused that problem. That knowledge should be highly useful.
Isn't z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat incompatible with the all Seaport controllers now , including PEGs?
Jayson
Quote from: sithlrd98 on September 01, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
Isn't z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat incompatible with the all Seaport controllers now , including PEGs?
Yes!
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 01, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
Independent of whether or not these are "broken" or "out of date" I don't think we are making steps forward when we use a tool that takes a set of eye-candy lots that worked perfectly well and caused no problems and "modify" those lots to turn out lots which cause CTD's. (at least not in my 4.5 meg plugins folder, nor have I read of problems with theses lots before.. perhaps you know of problems?)
IT seem it would behoove us to instead find out WHY a lot that worked (and not all lots, but at least the 3 listed above) and now cause CTD's and WHY the X-tool or whatever caused that problem. That knowledge should be highly useful.
Can you please remove
z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat and see if that would help?
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 01, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
IT seem it would behoove us to instead find out WHY a lot that worked (and not all lots, but at least the 3 listed above) and now cause CTD's and WHY the X-tool or whatever caused that problem. That knowledge should be highly useful.
Thats a pretty rude statement to make given that you are the only one with this problem, that you have no idea what is causing it and everying one is trying to help you. What makes it worse is that the cause is likely you're own fault for not reading the read me's on the seaports.
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 01, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
Independent of whether or not these are "broken" or "out of date" I don't think we are making steps forward when we use a tool that takes a set of eye-candy lots that worked perfectly well and caused no problems and "modify" those lots to turn out lots which cause CTD's. (at least not in my 4.5 meg plugins folder, nor have I read of problems with theses lots before.. perhaps you know of problems?)
IT seem it would behoove us to instead find out WHY a lot that worked (and not all lots, but at least the 3 listed above) and now cause CTD's and WHY the X-tool or whatever caused that problem. That knowledge should be highly useful.
You are the
ONLY person to report a CTD with these lots. I
CANNOT reproduce the problem. Ergo it is not the updated lots but the
OUTDATED seaport controller that you have in your plugins set up.
Quote from: RippleJet on September 01, 2009, 09:39:03 PM
Can you please remove z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat and see if that would help?
Will do
Ok I removed that file as well as another file with the same name but for "airport" in the name.. In either case (removing one or both gives the same result) Removing the file allowed me to place the 4x4 IC (one down), but still the 4x2 "Cable" and "Storage" sections cause CTD in the same scenerio
Load city, delete old shore lot, place new "revised" lot, save and exit to region, load city again, CTD within about 5 seconds after the city "pops up"
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 02, 2009, 05:21:19 PM
Load city, delete old shore lot, place new "revised" lot, save and exit to region, load city again, CTD within about 5 seconds after the city "pops up"
Sounds very much like the classic CTD due to functional seaports and controller not matching each other.
Since you had Swamper's Seaport Controller, did you ever plop a seaport in that city?
If I remember correctly, Peg's CSK2 Small Port was the only custom seaport properly supported by that controller.
The list below shows all seaport controllers and functional seaports that I'm aware of.
Could you check your plugins for all of them?
If you save this list in a txt file you can open it in Cleanitol as well.
PEG_Master-Seaport-Controller*.dat
PEG_3x5_CSK2_Port-Small*.dat
zPEG_3x5_CSK2_Port-Small_205f.dat
PEG-CDK3_10x5_Container Port*.dat
PEG-CDK3-SP_Break-Bulk_SeaPort*.dat
PEG-CDK3-SP_Pier-Seaport*.dat
PEG-CDK_Seaport_1*.dat
z_SW77-Seaport*.dat
AC Functional Seaports, Version*.dat
BSC Functional Seaports, Version*.dat
Quote from: RippleJet on September 02, 2009, 05:33:22 PM
Sounds very much like the classic CTD due to functional seaports and controller not matching each other.
Since you had Swamper's Seaport Controller, did you ever plop a seaport in that city?
If I remember correctly, Peg's CSK2 Small Port was the only custom seaport properly supported by that controller.
No. I've never had a "functional" port of any kind in this city.. Unless the garbage dump counts.. all other are eyecandy.
QuoteThe list below shows all seaport controllers and functional seaports that I'm aware of.Could you check your plugins for all of them?
Of course
Cleanitol says I have the following:
zPEG_3x5_CSK2_Port-Small_205f.dat
PEG-CDK3_10x5_Container Port*.dat
I had cleanitol move these files (the others were "not found") and reloaded the backup city file.. placed the 2 remaining lots in question and saved to region.. entered the city... and immediate CTD. Repeating this cycle, I tested both together and each individually to the same end. Any further ideas?
Also of course, removing these files have distroyed the textures if not the actual functionality of the PEG container port in the city where it is located (not this city). But that's another issue for now. I have only glanced at this and have made no investigation.
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 01, 2009, 08:22:54 PM
z_SW77-SeaportSupport.dat
This file includes a master seaport controller supporting the following seaports:
0xCA2D8CE6
0xCA2D8CE7
0x3098F242
0x307921C4
0xB0000700
0xAA2D8CE6
0xCC2D8CE6
0xEE2D8CE6
0xA0000700
0x073D4724
0x073D4725
0x073D4726
0x073D4727
0x073D4728
0x073D4729
0x073D472A
0x073D472B
0x073D472C
0x073D472D
0x519C0158
0x719C00C8
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 02, 2009, 08:01:28 PM
zPEG_3x5_CSK2_Port-Small_205f.dat
This file includes a master seaport controller supporting the following seaports:
0xCA2D8CE6
0x073D4725
0xA0000700
0xB0000700
0x073D4724
0x073D4726
0x073D4727
0x073D4728
0x073D4729
0x073D472A
0x073D472B
0x073D472C
0x073D472D
...and one individual seaport controller:
0x073D4725 - PEG CSK 2 Small Port
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 02, 2009, 08:01:28 PM
PEG-CDK3_10x5_Container Port*.dat
This file includes a master seaport controller supporting the following seaports:
0xCA2D8CE6
0x073D4725
0x073D4726
...and one individual seaport controller:
0xCA2D8CE6 - Maxis Seaport (replaced by the CDK3 Container Port)
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 02, 2009, 08:01:28 PM
Any further ideas?
Unfortunately there is no way for me to determine in what order you've installed the above three files and in what order you've plopped eye-candy seaports in between and after each above file. As soon as you replaced
any of the eye-candy seaport files installed before, during or after
any of the above three files, you do have a situation where a CTD is more than likely to occur though.
To continue exploring this city is rather difficult... the only thing I can recommend is to return to a point where you had no CTD (before updating the WIMP files) and not to touch any of your seaport plugins files after that. Any further support regarding that city would honestly belong to another well known SC4 site, don't you think?
Regarding WIMP, I would prefer if you could test the updated files in a city that you have never run having any of those three files above in your plugins.
Quote from: RippleJet on September 02, 2009, 11:14:40 PM
Unfortunately there is no way for me to determine in what order you've installed the above three files and in what order you've plopped eye-candy seaports in between and after each above file. As soon as you replaced any of the eye-candy seaport files installed before, during or after any of the above three files, you do have a situation where a CTD is more than likely to occur though.
Hmmm.. I vaguely see what you're saying.. maybe.. :) In fact truly I wish I DID see.. LOL And I certainly can do that for this city. As far as I can tell the lots are visually absolutely identical. Should I be concerned about putting it into another city which has NEVER had one of the "old" lots in it (in this region)? Or should I just avoid the issue? I have no waterside areas that aren't already done, so that isn't an issue, I'm just curious. None of the other citytiles have or have ever had a CTD issue.
QuoteTo continue exploring this city is rather difficult... the only thing I can recommend is to return to a point where you had no CTD (before updating the WIMP files) and not to touch any of your seaport plugins files after that. ...
Yes I can do that. I upgraded the files because I thought there was actually some value added. Can you explain what property of the eyecandy lots were changed to make them (or a subset) incompatible? Are you saying it was just chance that the "old" lots didn't crash the city? How do eyecandy lots have a relationship to "seaport controllers" Sorry to be so dense about this topic. If the explaination is obtuse and you don't want to bother, that's fine. Or if its explained elsewhere, I'll be happy to go read it.
QuoteRegarding WIMP, I would prefer if you could test the updated files in a city that you have never run having any of those three files above in your plugins.
I'd be happy to do further testing. What approach might be best? If I set up a new region without any of the above "questionable" files, would that be useful. It shouldn't be a big deal for me. I'll just blast out a something in a few hours work, a couple of days at most.
If I start said region without any "questionable" files:
a. Can I "import" the old city as a start? (with/without current structures.. ie. "as was" vs the GOD TOOL wipe city) Or should I start clean with never an "old WIMP" in it? Or even both on seperate citytiles?
b. Should I develop other cities around it, or do you think redoing this city only would be productive?
c. Do you think I could store this city and start this same city over (god-mode wipe) in THIS OLD region and put in the new lots (having never had the old lots in it) or do you think that would be productive? Will it still have some "fingerprint" of the old lots?
In short, as long as you feel there is some reasonable expectation of finding anything, I will be happy to contribute my testing.
For A/B testing, I can't reproduce the old lots since I overwrote them with the "new, improved" lots AND download file :(. .. unless Barby or someone has a copy of the "pre-updated" lots.. I'd love to have them anyways. I actually LIKE those lots and would use them fairly often :). They do seem to be perfectly happy to co-exist with the "new" lots. And as far as I can tell absolutely nothing on the lots were changed, though obviously something in the "guts" was changed.
Thanks as always for your open, receptive approach to issues, as always. And for your patience :thumbsup:
Instead of doing more useful things like preparing new uploads etc, I have been checking these lots AGAIN. I do have the original set as they are on the SC4D DVD and checking both sets I note that this is what I changed:
1. ripptide made the original lots on a Park lot with the Parent Cohort in the exemplar and I used his original few lots to extend the set. I removed the Parent Cohort and added the property Exemplar Type = Buildings.
2. There was a Medium Wealth level applied to all lots. I changed this to None.
3. Many lots had a Res Cap property. This has been removed.
4. One lot used one Peg modded Maxis prop. The Peg modded one has been replaced with the unmodded Maxis one.
Your problems would appear to result from using a mix of seaport controllers. Ripplejet siad:
QuoteAs soon as you replaced any of the eye-candy seaport files installed before, during or after any of the above three files, you do have a situation where a CTD is more than likely to occur though.
If you have changed any of the packs you mentioned at any stage then a CTD is likely to occur and is TOTALLY unconnected to the use of the BRT WIMPs.
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 03, 2009, 01:14:27 AM
Can you explain what property of the eyecandy lots were changed to make them (or a subset) incompatible? Are you saying it was just chance that the "old" lots didn't crash the city? How do eyecandy lots have a relationship to "seaport controllers" Sorry to be so dense about this topic. If the explaination is obtuse and you don't want to bother, that's fine. Or if its explained elsewhere, I'll be happy to go read it.
Nothing in the new lots makes them incompatible.
They are properly modded as ordinary seaport eye-candy lots, just as well as the old ones were.
The problem is in not having the seaport controllers properly modded.
If the main seaport controller doesn't match all individual controllers there's always a risk of getting CTD's.
It is within the past year or so that we have realised that also eye-candy lots in the seaport and airport menus cause the same CTD,
if the main controller doesn't match all individual controllers.
The thread I linked you to above with airport billboards was quite obvious.
I believe the same cause can probably also explain
ZFein23's
Seaport crashing city on load (http://simpeg.com/forum/index.php?topic=7042.0).
Quote from: SC4BOY on September 03, 2009, 01:14:27 AM
I'd be happy to do further testing. What approach might be best?
I believe these lots have been more than enough tested by now.
I would only suggest that you confirm it for yourself, that they work in a new city without having any defunct seaport controller in your plugins.
Quote from: BarbyW on September 03, 2009, 02:29:16 AM
..., I have been checking these lots AGAIN. I do have the original set as they are on the SC4D DVD and checking both sets I note that this is what I changed:
1. ripptide made the original lots on a Park lot with the Parent Cohort in the exemplar and I used his original few lots to extend the set. I removed the Parent Cohort and added the property Exemplar Type = Buildings.
2. There was a Medium Wealth level applied to all lots. I changed this to None.
3. Many lots had a Res Cap property. This has been removed.
4. One lot used one Peg modded Maxis prop. The Peg modded one has been replaced with the unmodded Maxis one.
Thank you Barby.. I didn't mean for you to do that.. I had absolutely no doubt that you "did it by the books" as you always do! I know I've been a PITA and you've been patient for my stumbling around.. You've been most kind. :thumbsup: I do appreciate your telling me what was done to the lots ..
I owe you one and if I can do something for you in return someday, please call on me.
QuoteYour problems would appear to result from using a mix of seaport controllers. Ripplejet siad:If you have changed any of the packs you mentioned at any stage then a CTD is likely to occur and is TOTALLY unconnected to the use of the BRT WIMPs.
Quote from: RippleJet on September 03, 2009, 03:05:10 AM
Nothing in the new lots makes them incompatible.
...
If the main seaport controller doesn't match all individual controllers there's always a risk of getting CTD's.
I'm resigned to this. I confess I'm totally in the dark as to why this sequence of events cause this... And I guess to some lesser extent everyone else is too.. I guess we all just try to "learn the rules" dictated by the EA code and live by it where we can't see how to get a grip on it. I thought more was known about this, but I guess we all just learn what NOT to do. :)
Aye.. I'm hardheaded, but I think among all of you, you've finally convinced me that I just stumbled across an odd case of "having made my bed" then trying to switch something that just wasn't going to be.. whether I understand it or not..
After this event and following the Prop Pox thread, it seems that once certain "seeds" are planted into a region/cities save file, the options for future actions are restricted.. mostly in unknown ways for now.
QuoteI believe these lots have been more than enough tested by now.
I would only suggest that you confirm it for yourself, that they work in a new city without having any defunct seaport controller in your plugins.
LOL.. OK! OK! :) ... I think I'm getting the picture.. hehe.. I will just use the old lots "save" for this city/region and simply not worry about it.. The next time I do a shoreline, I am convinced that I will be able to use these revised "new" lots with absolute confidence.
As Barby has the old lots I could "get around it" if I have some unforseen problem with THIS city.. I expect nothing further will arise.. I have no plans to further develop any more shoreline in this region, and as long as I leave it alone, all works fine.