PW/game water transitions

[ldvger]

You weren't keen on a BATted piece to fade away? You would plop it on a lot at or near sea level, and join the PW to it (the PW and join piece share a texture at one end) and it appears to disappear.

joelyboy, I have no objections to the idea at all, just didn't respond to it because I am too embarrassed to admit I don't really know what a BAT is.  But, if someone can create a lot that plops under game water and over game created waves that matches the color of plop water on the land side and game water on the sea side, I'm all for it.  However, I see the challenges as being many folded.  1.) there are many PWs out there and folks make new ones all the time, so you'd have to create a transition piece for each one.  2.) there are just as many water mods out there that change the color and texture of the GW as there are PWs, so I think that would effectively square the amount of tiles you'd need to create 3.) GW color varies tremendously depending on the slope of the terrain under it.  Shallow beaches are very light in color, almost white/clear, while more steeply sloped beaches are darker, quicker, as one moves away from shore.  If the tile you're imagining is very slope tolerant this wouldn't be an issue (I don't think) but so far creating slope tolerant PW has been another one of those ongoing challenges.  Related to this is the fact that lots of folks have built sea walls where the edges of thier cities are right on the shoreline, and so they have no beaches at all.  Rivers that join the sea under these circumstances are usually confined within made made banks, concrete, usually, and that's yet another variable that would need to be considered. 

I don't think the dirty water plop can be changed easily, as it is the water pollution effect from the game's original set of such things, is it not?

I have no idea how jeronij made his dirty water plop or if it's in any way related to the game's automatic coloring of polluted water near industrial areas.  However, I have PM'd jeronij to ask him if it would be possible to change the color of the plop from brown to a blue that would match his TPW, but so far have not received any reply. 

How does one take a custom work created by someone else and then tweak it a bit to thier own personal wants/needs?  Is it possible to do so?  Is it ethical to do so without first asking the original creator of the work if it's OK to do so?  I am pretty sure I have all the tools necessary, just haven't a clue in the world how to use them to either modify existing stuff or create new stuff. 

Lora/LD

[dragonshardz]

Is it possible to do so?  Is it ethical to do so without first asking the original creator of the work if it's OK to do so? 

It is possible, and ethical, as long as you don't release your tweaked stuff without permission.

[Diggis]

You weren't keen on a BATted piece to fade away? You would plop it on a lot at or near sea level, and join the PW to it (the PW and join piece share a texture at one end) and it appears to disappear.

This is something I have been thinking about for a while and had a small play last night.  My results weren't much but I am going to have another crack at it later in the month.  I started with the bank pieces but should really have started with the water.  I'll post pics here if I get anywhere.

[joelyboy911]

Is there a mayor mode PW using the textures of your canals, diggis? They are from (Cal's?) canals aren't they? (Or something?).

joelyboy, I have no objections to the idea at all, just didn't respond to it because I am too embarrassed to admit I don't really know what a BAT is.  But, if someone can create a lot that plops under game water and over game created waves that matches the color of plop water on the land side and game water on the sea side, I'm all for it.  However, I see the challenges as being many folded.  1.) there are many PWs out there and folks make new ones all the time, so you'd have to create a transition piece for each one.  2.) there are just as many water mods out there that change the color and texture of the GW as there are PWs, so I think that would effectively square the amount of tiles you'd need to create 3.) GW color varies tremendously depending on the slope of the terrain under it.  Shallow beaches are very light in color, almost white/clear, while more steeply sloped beaches are darker, quicker, as one moves away from shore.  If the tile you're imagining is very slope tolerant this wouldn't be an issue (I don't think) but so far creating slope tolerant PW has been another one of those ongoing challenges.  Related to this is the fact that lots of folks have built sea walls where the edges of thier cities are right on the shoreline, and so they have no beaches at all.  Rivers that join the sea under these circumstances are usually confined within made made banks, concrete, usually, and that's yet another variable that would need to be considered. 

Point 1, is quite right. 100%. and this is a challenge to be faced.
Point 2, my idea was that it would be transparent at the other end so the GW, no matter what would look normal.
Point 3, I'm not sure about all this, but I might know a way to increase slope tolerance: when I was playing with making my aircraft, I experimented with custom LODs (you don't need to worry what this means, as I can't explain what it does very well myself) and setting it to align itself to the slope it was placed on. I think, when I placed it with this complex LOD that it bent itself over the changing slope I put it on. I will have to play with this, as it might open some new possibilities - not sure if anyone else has tried it yet?

Oh and, you had no need to be embarrassed, a BAT is just another name for the building or prop produced in the Building Architect Tool. Every custom lot using non-maxis content contains one.

[Diggis]

No idea, I haven't made one.  And Yes, it's Cal's Canals. I'm trying to do a transition piece from my lots to the water that looks natural.

[ldvger]

Well, I spent a good portion of my day yesterday reading over the BAT Essentials tutorial over on ST with the thought that I may need to finally learn how to create my own custom content rather than depend on others to do so for me, also to see if maybe I could learn how to tweak other custom content to my personal needs.  Looks like an impressive tool, but about 1/3 of the way through the tutorial all the ullustrations turned into boxes with X's in them. 

Joelyboy, if you think you can BAT a transition piece, go for it!  My reasons for reading the BAT stuff yesterday was to see if I could learn how to do something like what you are describing and if you already know how to BAT stuff, you'll beat me to the finish line by miles. 

And Diggis, welcome to the discussion, nice to have another person join the group, nice to learn you are also working on this PW/GW transition issue.  I don't use canals (or at least, I haven't so far) and I wonder of your canals use GW or PW, as I've seen it done both ways.  Also, do your canals run all the way to the sea?  Are your seashores constrained by sea walls or do they have more naturalistic beaches?  And yes, please post some pics of your attempts, it helps us all to see how others are working to resolve this challenge. 

I've been continueing to play around with the idea of extending the very low level terrain that comprise the PW river bed out to sea.  I've been using the level tool at increasingly smaller setting the further I get from land and creating braided "channels" and slowly lowering the land level that's in the sea at the same time.  Then I paint it over with jeronij's brown TPW so it looks like muddy/silty water.  The TPW also plops over the waves, disguising them, which takes care of that little problem.  I read someplace that the TPW actually plops 4m ABOVE land and that there is a way to adjust that setting.  It's that setting that allows us to use the TPW over GW to a depth of 4m before it stops, so I was wondering what would happen if that setting were raised for transition pieces?  We could use TPW from land out to sea to a depth of 4m, then switch to a TPW that was usable over GW up to a depth of say 100m (just pulling a random number out of the air) or to whatever depth the GW is when it becomes opaque.  The depth at which GW becomes opaque varies by whichever water mod one has installed, but I remember reading not too long ago (maybe even here) that PEG's Brigantine becomes opaque at around elevation 231, which if sea level is 250, would be 19 m below sea level, right? 

I have had very little luck plopping other PW's under GW, but I know that is a method some folks are using with some success, especially if waves are turned off. 

I'll see if I can post some pics later of some of my attempts.

Lora/LD

[Diggis]

Lora,

I'm not really doing these for TPW or PW.  I have done lot based streams and always have wanted a natural transition to game water.  I've just had a wee play with my stuff and have the following images for you:





This is simply a transparent BAT of the water texture I use overhanging game water to look like it is dissapearing.  The trick now is to get the banks looking right too and then get the right place to stop my river bottom texture (which is what is causing the abrupt change from opaque to transparent)

[ldvger]

Diggis-

your work is fantastic and by far the best, or close to the best, I have seen so far.  Yes, you have some issues left to resolve, but great job, great job!

I got an answer back from jeronij todat from my PM to him and I thought I would share it with you all, being as how most of what he says makes almost no sense to me at all.  I am hoping it will maybe ring some bells in your minds and maybe help you.  This was the answer to my PM to him:

Hello Lora,

Sorry for the late reply, I am quite short of time atm...

I fear that I cant help you with that actually, but I'll try to give you some steps to get your own TPW as easy as possible.
1st search the LEX for my TPW models
2nd render them (or ask someone to render them for you) with the desired texture (dont change the material parameters, only the texture)
3rd activate the transparency using cogeo's last tool SC4 Model Tweaker (I am sorry, I dont have a link at hand atm, but it is found here somewhere in the forums. Not sure if it has been uploaded to the LEX


This is all gibberish to me, as I know zero about creating custom content (but am trying to learn).  I post this with the hope/thought that it might mean sometning to someone else paying attention to this thread and that it might give them an "AHA" momonet. 

My PM to him asked him about 1.) modifying his TPW's and 2.) modifying his "Dirty Water" plop.

I don't know if this new info helps at all, just hoping it does.

Lora/LD

[joelyboy911]

If I could get access to some of PEG's textures, then this would be so easy (Tahoe is my PW of choice atm.) - of course, I am well aware that this is unlikely, though I would be overjoyed if someone would like to show me something....

What is your current preferred PW? If it's one that has a texture lingering somewhere for other people to use, then I will try making the BAT I described because I don't think anyone quite gets exactly what I mean, though diggis is close to it. I mean for it to be opaque at one end and transparent at the other with a gradual transition - it could be 4 tiles long, and oddly shaped like the pw, or there could be a start a middle and an end piece to make river mouths of any width.

[ldvger]

Joelyboy, I am currently using a mix of PW: Edmonton, Tahoe, and jeronij's three TPW's, with emphasis on the blue TPW.  To create the illusion of varing depth in my PW streams and rivers, I use Edmonton in the center, then Tahoe to either side of that, then overlay the entire stream with the blue TPW and extend that also to the steam banks.  For smaller streams, I just use the Tahoe and the TPW and for yet smaller streams, just the TPW. 

Lora/LD

[rdrdrdrd]

just had an idea, make 1x1 lots that will always put the water prop of the lot about 1 to 2 m above the water, and then transition pieces that fade to transparent that would surround them, understand what I mean, also, found this great gw to pw transition

Transition - Canal to Game Water

I am very impressed with the PPond to Brigatine transition...   in a word...  "seamless".







OK, OK...  I will turn the waves on...

[ldvger]

rdrdrdrd-

I agree that is a gorgeous and seamless PW/GW transition...until the waves are turned on, then it fails my own personal test. 

Been a while since I have posted here, been busy with my MD and other stuff.  I have begun working with a modder by name of rivit who created a fantastic set of Coastal Water Mods (available for download, you really should check them out, GREAT addition to the GW texture/color options).  He and I have been working on a number of small side projects, including PW/GW transition.  Right now we are just working on muddy textured PW joining muddy textured GW, as specifically needed for my MD.  His latest batch of plops are really very good and I have muddy water plops that run seamlessly from land, down across the beach, and then out to GW to the point of disappearing underwater completely.  Still bugs to work out...waves remain an issue.  But, we are getting close. 

He has also created for me a great set of mud flat beaches which fade underwater very nicely.  Many folks are clamoring for these to be released, but there is still work to do on them.  Mud is actually very important for realistic depiction of running water to standing water and so far no one has really addressed this lack, so I'm very excited about it. 

You can check out some of the early work he's done over on my MD, and my expreiments with it. 

Lora/LD

[Pat]

Lora you caught my attention here in what you are wanting to do!! Sorry Ive been outta the "loop" for a while and I am playing catch up... This is right up my alley and I will see what I can play with... What I have done in the past is usually cover up the transition to "Hide" the game water from TPW/PW effect...

Shaun I like what you did there for sure and progress at all?

[ldvger]

Well, the little red warning has popped up asking me if I really want to post a reply to this topic, being as how it's been over 120 days since the last reply.  Hey, I'm typing aren't I, so I guess that answers the question.

I'd like to re-open the discusiion that seemed to be close to bearing fruit last fall on how to transition plop water to game water.  I am partly to blame for why this topic kinda slid by the wayside, as I got caught up in other projects.  However, I have a new MD started and once again am going to need to figure out how to transition PW to GW.  I have not made any personal progress on that particular front since last I posted here, so I am hoping that the 6 months that have elapsed have maybe been illuminating to other players who posted under this topic and seem to be equally interested in solving this bugaboo. 

I have made some progress in other areas of learning the mechanics of the game.  My buddy rivit, who was so kind and generous with his time last fall, has come to my rescue once again, this time in the role of teacher.  I have learned how to create terrain mods and along the way also learned quite a bit about creating new textures and how to insert them into the game.  Rivit and I are still in regular correspondence with each other, so it may be that he will be willing to teach me how to move from terrain mods to plop water mods.

Last fall, I had an idea that I discussed with rivit about making a "PW/GW Transition Kit".  One of the big challenges of the PW/GW transition is the many, many different colors, textures, and appearances of water we have available to play with, both plop waters and game waters.  So I thought that rather than trying to find a combo from existing plops and mods that work well together, maybe we could create a new mod that was both a water mod AND a plop mod in one kit.  It would be very restrictive to begin with, of course, because not everyone wants or likes the same kinds of water, but it would be a start.  Once made, and if made simply enough, folks who wanted to could "mod the mod" to create thier own unique waters. 

After reading all the posts in this thread again this afternoon, I recall that a couple of the problems were 1.) transparency of game water (i.e. the depth of the water at which object under water begin to fade out and cease to be visible and 2.) getting plops to plop under water.

From my recent work with terrain mods, I have learned that game water transparency is easily adjusted.  Theorictically, I think it could be possible to make game water crystal clear to the furthest depths of any oceans we could create.  It wouldn't be very realistic to do so, but knowing the transparncy of the water is adjustable is a tool we can use.  I also recall rivit telling me that it is possible to adjust the elevation above ground level that any plop, including water plops, apply themselves in game.  This is one of the ways (I think, anyway) that jeronij was able to create is TPW's...he raised the plops above ground level, which allowed the underlying textures to show through.  If I understand this capability correctly, it actually allows us to "layer" plops over each other to some degree.  I'm pretty sure rivit did some experimenting with this last fall and found that there are limits as to a.) how much above or below ground level one can plop a plop and b.) how many layers a single game cell will allow to be plopped over or under it.  Still, I'm of the opinion that the knowledge of these two important adjustable variables are key to the PW/GW transition. 

So...anyone else interesting in once again attempting to tackle this?

Lora/LD

[Pat]

Hi Lora indeed there is a limit but how far and with what textures you use hmmm now that is a good question indeed!! I will follow along and help out as much as i can physicaly here with this as like i said before transition has been my pain for loooong time lol

[ldvger]

Pat-

Glad to see you posting here, I remember your interest in this from last fall.  Let me run a couple of ideas past you and let me know what you think.

Jeronij's TPW is, so far, the only PW I've found that I can plop under GW.  In truth, it actually plops OVER GW, not under it, as the TPW sits 6m (I think) above sea level.  This feature allows one to plop it up to -6m...after that, it won't plop.  So, one of my ideas is to mod the TPW specifically for use under GW by raising it even further above sea level.  If, for instance, one used the 6m TPW on land and then out to sea to -6m, one would then switch over to the 12m TPW to continue further out to sea with the same color and texture as the 6m TPW.  This would allow one to plop TPW to -12m.

I've talked a little bit about the variability of transparency of GW, dependent on if and what mod is used, and the setting in the exemplar that controls that feature of GW.  I believe the "Brigantine" mod that is so very popular is set to become opaque at -36m.  If we created special TPW plops that could go to -36m under GW (Brigantine mod, that is), then I think the transition between GW and PW would be seamless. 

I don't know how to mod a TPW, so I can't try this out for myself.  However, if anyone else knows how to "reverse engineer" a TPW tile, it seems to me making a couple of special "underwater" TPW plops wouldn't be that difficult. 

What do you think?  Could this work? 

Lora/LD