Bringing Back Karma

[Haljackey]

The one thing I'd like to add is that the karma system is meant for the unusual or above-and-beyond or particular recognition of a post. The primary drawback I see with a standard system or point recognition for downloads/uploads/etc is that, while significant effort goes into it, it's more or less why we're here.

Good points, but this makes me think that the system should have been restarted when changes for administering karma were changed back in '07.

I don't want to sound selfish (because I'm not, just trying to make a point), but it wasn't exactly fair to have older members keep their karma before the changes were made. This gave them a disproportionate amount of points (on average) and made it difficult for new members to move up the karma 'ladder'. This in count may have discouraged new members, combined with the fact that they weren't allowed to administer any karma themselves. I am not saying numbers are everything, but this could have lowered the bar to make things seem more 'fair'.

Keep in mind that I am not pointing out that any members that received a lot of karma before the changes were made do not deserve it, I just wanted to get my point across. I just want to get you thinking about something along those lines.

Has the staff ever thought about a karma elimination/reset to level the playing field? In my opinion it's not the best option, but worth a thought as you consider some sort of reform to the current system.

-Ryan (Haljackey)

[threestooges]

To my knowledge, a karma reset has not been discussed, and speaking apart from the staff as a whole (the topic, I'm sure will be discussed in greater detail moving forward) but I'm not sure that would necessarily solve the problem, as many properly apportioned karma points were given back in the day as well, which would improperly short-change the recipients there.

I know I don't have eyes everywhere, and I certainly wasn't in on all the scuttlebutt back when I first joined, but I always kept an eye on the karma logs. It interested me to see who was being recognized for what. Sure, there were the unnecessary ones (both plus and minus) and as established, those led to the current situation. By and large however, the karma presented seemed to be for the same reasons as it is today. The main difference being the number of people who currently have the capability to hand it out.

As others have stated from the staff side of the site, that method is likely going to continue (though the number may, and likely will, increase) but we still have eyes all over the site. As has been mentioned before, if you see something you think is good, PM a staff member with your thoughts on the matter. I know I've given out a few on behalf of others before.

I'd wager there is still more to discuss on the staff side of things before any different paths are taken, but for now, if it hasn't been firmly written anywhere else yet, if you want to give a point to someone (up or down) just shoot a staff member a PM; myself included, and we can get it done if the reasons are right. Just because members don't have the buttons doesn't mean they can't change someone's karma.
-Matt

[jmyers2043]

Karma as a competition. I've not thought about it in that manner. I've thought of it as a thank you for helping out or answering a question. I've thought of it as recognition from ones piers. Maybe Karma is merely a gesture of appreciation for a neat screen grab or series of pictures. Either way, someone thought it important enough to PM an Admin and request that a Karma point be assigned. The effort to put a couple of sentences together speaks to the value and worth of the karma system today. 

Why do I do this? SimCity and batting is a way to unwind from work. My mind explores a real life object. I break it down into various elements and assemble them in gmax. It starts out as a puzzle. Ends up growing inside the game we all have in common. There is a satisfaction when a texture comes together and it looks really good on that wall or roof. I don't have a creative job. It is technical and I have to use logic to solve problems. SC4 Devotion, the game, and gmax all fill a creative need. Karma? Is not why I do this.

We all play the game and create monster cities or rural landscapes. We read or comment in the various threads that interest us. Some display pictures of their cities. Some use creativity and put pizzazz into the pictures using Photoshop and skill. Is this done for the enjoyment for self? Or do I also hope that others may enjoy or appreciate the effort too? Can I make an argument that I post a picture of my city because I am first pleased with it? I am pleased again if/when someone provides positive feedback. I post pictures of future bats and occasionally upload to the LEX. But I first got enjoyment from the creating of the game asset. I enjoyed watching it sprout the first time in the game. I appreciate the occasional word of encouragement or a simple 'thank you' more than you can know. A bunch of karma points is not my motivation. 

OK. 17 Karma points have been awarded this month so far. Today is the 23rd. That is not quite one a day, but enough. Karma is not totally dead, not totally impossible, but valuable and worth something when received.

Obviously, merely my opinion . – Jim.

[art128]

but my position is, that LEX is flood by the maps, it makes shadow to the rest of the uploads above all when the 3 places at the entrance of the LEX are the most viewed thumbails and people often don't open older uploads.

Then instead of going for a totally selfish idea ( which at term will give more award to BATs and MODs than MAPs) why just not re-organize the LEX? A better viewing area when we arrive on the site. Like instead of " last three uploads " something such as " last three uploads " divided into three columns, one for mods, one for bats and one for maps. After that still the latest button etc to see more.

Moreover, when I see that less than 50 people are downloading maps I am asking if they are their place on the LEX regarding their weight.

Amount of download doesn't mean it's top quality. Sure a good BAT can get more than ten thousands downloads in a short amount of time, but MAPs are spectacular as well. I disagree completely to your opinion on this point. Wherever a BAT/MAP/MOD has 50 downloads or 50K, if it is on the LEX it means it has deserved it as much as any other uploads.

It's in this sense I went to a system of downloads. The most an upload is acclaimed, the most it should be awarded. Simple law of supply and demand.

We are not in economy class here buddy. Such a law doesn't apply here.

About your idea Catty, it's a first step but to be honest authors are not interested in Subscriber privileges which are IMHO obsolete and "don't make dream". Moreover these people have already these privileges as they belong to teams or already subscribed to the site. 

But what a creator think at first is not privilege he gets from being in a team or uploading. A creator wants his custom content downloaded at least and being seen in various place such as MDs. At least that's how I see it. A creator that is waiting for something more than that after an upload is being selfish and self centered.

[Tarkus]

but my position is, that LEX is flood by the maps, it makes shadow to the rest of the uploads above all when the 3 places at the entrance of the LEX are the most viewed thumbails and people often don't open older uploads.

Then instead of going for a totally selfish idea ( which at term will give more award to BATs and MODs than MAPs) why just not re-organize the LEX? A better viewing area when we arrive on the site. Like instead of " last three uploads " something such as " last three uploads " divided into three columns, one for mods, one for bats and one for maps. After that still the latest button etc to see more.

There's one big obstacle in the way of that: it would require a considerable amount of re-programming on the LEX software.  The LEX software is proprietary, supplied by Colyn and one of his employees (ReLiC).  They were active in maintaining it from 2007-2008, but aren't active and don't have time to support it.  To the best of my knowledge, there's only been one tweak since then--the addition of built-in Google Search in April 2009, which jeronij did himself. 

Back on subject, I should also add that I receive a fairly regular stream of PMs asking for me to +1 other members, so I'm in agreement with Jim that the system, especially with the extension to select non-staff, is working.  As far as newer members having lower point figures, I'd say that's more a simple correlation with the fact that they haven't been here as long, and/or met the criteria to receive points.  There are quite members who joined/became active after the "karma lockdown" who have pretty sizable karma-point tallies, in large part because they've contributed a great deal to the site in some way or another.  In select cases, we've actually given multiple k-points out in one fell swoop for particularly notable accomplishments.  SC4D has always prided itself on being a meritocracy.  If someone merits it, they'll get a point.

I would also like to remind folks that being a contentious issue, it's especially important to keep things civil, and the staff is watching this thread very closely to ensure it stays that way.

-Alex

[noahclem]

Just a quick something about maps & mappers:  It's already been mentioned that creating maps takes quite a bit of time of and skill. I would add that being able to play a top-quality map of any style from almost anywhere in the world is an awesome thing for simcity players to be able to do. Additionally, if there's a place you really want to play and you ask nicely someone will make it for you. The download numbers for maps will always be different than BATs--for example in my region I use thousands of BATs but only one map.

[catty]

...but it wasn't exactly fair to have older members keep their karma before the changes were made. This gave them a disproportionate amount of points (on average) and made it difficult for new members to move up the karma 'ladder'....

Hi Haljackey

Most of those older members have long since moved onto other interests so their karma count isn't going to ever go up, another problem we have is unlike a few years ago people don't post with or take part in the community with the same enthusiasm as those "older members" had for the game and this site so as a result we don't have the same number of karma points being issued, I used to go to bed at night and wake up the next morning to find 4 pages of posts to catch up, these days that's just as likely to be four posts.



Hi Girafe

...It's in this sense I went to a system of downloads. The most an upload is acclaimed, the most it should be awarded. Simple law of supply and demand.

I realise what you are saying and do appreciate were you are coming from on this, but you already have that on the LEX, everyone who downloads your work has the opportunity to use the "Lot Value" buttons and to also make comment on your work, there is the "Most Popular" menu but as the mega packs, etc have had the most downloads on the site, they naturally come up first as everyone downloads them and that's something we can't change.

As to maps I'm completely hopeless at map making and consider them essential items on the LEX ...

... Just looked at the time and need to head off to   

-catty

[mike3775]

Maps should definitely be taken into account if the LEX comes into play

Yes they may not get the same amount of downloads as other stuff on the LEX, but they do get downloaded.

I play different maps every so often(I probably have around 75 different maps on my system or backed up somewhere on disc) and my interests change every so often.  One week I may like to build a region on an all flat terrain(basically whatever the game creates for a new region, edited to only have large city tiles), or fall back to my all time favorite map, one of San Juan Puerto Rico I grabbed from ST back in 2003 or 2004.  Sometimes I play the NHP Washington map, or I even play the GRV official map.  My tatses vary, and if what I have looked at here is logged, any staff member with access would be able to verify that I have looked through both map sections not to long ago looking for maps to play on.    I appreciate the people who make maps, and some of them cannot be easy to make, considering the details put into them.

[threestooges]

...people don't post with or take part in the community with the same enthusiasm as those "older members" had for the game and this site so as a result we don't have the same number of karma points being issued, I used to go to bed at night and wake up the next morning to find 4 pages of posts to catch up, these days that's just as likely to be four posts.

I would not, on this topic, while there are several factors that contribute to it, I don't think the enthusiasm for the game has died, so much as the developments in the works now are the more technical ones which require more behind-the-scenes tinkering with numbers: terrain mods for example, now seem to be gaining momentum where before it seemed it was only cycledogg and one or two others. Now there are several high quality ones being developed by several different people. As a result, I wouldn't say the lower post numbers stem from lack of interest.

That said, there are folks who have moved to other interests, so I agree I wouldn't expect to see their karma levels changing.
-Matt

[whatevermind]

Alright, time to weigh in on this one 

First - the idea of a karma reset, I think, is a terrible idea. I can't speak too well to the size of the imbalance in karma that may exist, but the idea of stripping well-deserved karma from older community members who may no longer be active is simply not fair to them and the time and effort they devoted to the community.

Personally, I think the karma system as is works pretty well.  For the most part, those with higher karma earned it.  It is a reward, and specifically because it can't be received for just anything, it carries a lot of value.  I'm right there with noahclem about that first karma point.  I think I actually jumped out of my seat when I saw the PM.    I think a lot of that gravity and excitement comes from the fact that it does require someone to go out of their way to nominate someone else for karma.  And, as this thread has shown, there's a lot of different ways you can nominate someone for karma, many of them quite easy, so I have to say I think the nomination system works pretty well, too.

Of course, not all karma is serious, which creates a lighthearted atmosphere, and introduces an element of surprise. If I remember correctly, someone not too long ago received karma for "not being a bot".  Many others have received it simply for subscribing and writing a nice note to show their appreciation for the community.  These aren't great works, they're just fun.

One final note, I do like catty's idea of creating a LEX Uploader badge.  Something to be handed out to those who have successfully completed the scrutineer process, and gained full uploading rights.  As it's been pointed out, that number's pretty small.  Now, many very talented creators choose to bypass the LEX altogether, which is fine.  But, since the community generally recognizes the LEX as being a more exclusive exchange due to the scrutineer process, I think having a profile badge to honor that achievement would be a nice touch and generally well received.

[mike3775]

I also agree with the LEX badge as well, that is something that should be done regardless of whether Kharma gets revamped or not.  Anyone who has upload rights on the LEX deserve to be recognized because to make it through the scrutineer process should be awarded with a badge because it is not easy to get through that process at all, and why I feel the LEX is the best place to come for lots because rarely do lots cause issues.

[FrankU]

Some € 0,05 by me.
Getting a Karma point makes me feel I did actually add something useful to the community. Be it a smart question, a useful tutorial or something else like that. It is something that is valuable and I think it should not be treated too lightly.
An award is worth what the jury is: the more exclusive the higher the value.
You can compare it with the stars rating on Simtropolis. Almost all uploads end with 4 or 5 stars, making this rating not too valuable. So if everyone could give Karma points to anybody the meaning of the system would diminish.
So I vote for an exclusive group of people being able to distribute Karma points.

[Haljackey]

You can compare it with the stars rating on Simtropolis. Almost all uploads end with 4 or 5 stars, making this rating not too valuable. So if everyone could give Karma points to anybody the meaning of the system would diminish.

So I vote for an exclusive group of people being able to distribute Karma points.

Keep in mind I am not basing this discussion on anything outside of the site. Simtropolis has their own system and I will stress that it should not be taken into account for any possible changes here.

Next up, regarding the LEX, remember it is separate from the forum. Should the forum have it's own system separate from the LEX? That seems to be mentality of the current system, as nearly all of the karma is administered based on posts.

Lastly should I set up a poll so people can vote? Ultimately it's a staff decision, but a poll might help show the staff what the opinion of the site is regarding the karma system.

[rooker1]

Let's wait on the poll idea please.

Robin

[threestooges]

We have the discussion going well at the staff level, and this thread has proven to be useful in feeding that discussion. I don't think a poll would add too much to what we have here already. We'll keep you posted.
-Matt

[rooker1]

Karma - is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect.  People here do what they do because they want to help: to BAT, to Modd.....whatever it is, they do it first and foremost because they enjoy it.  The karma system is something apart from that.

This is Jeroni's site and the karma system was something he put in for a particular reason.  There may be some improvements that could be done here or there and we the staff are always, always open to anyone's suggestions.

After looking over the discussion in this thread and discussing it on a staff level, the Karma Point system as you all see it today will remain as it is with the exception that more members as time passes will join the small group that can hand out Karma Points.

All SC4D members can freely PM any Staff member regarding issuing Karma Points to a deserving member on their behalf.

General Guidelines
-All SC4 Devotion members are eligible for recognition.
-Karma can be awarded when any member at SC4 Devotion sends a PM to the SC4 Devotion staff with specific information about what behavior or action should be recognized.
-SC4 Devotion staff is not the sole means of the process to award Karma. It is recognized that the staff cannot be everywhere at all times nor are we always thinking about Karma. There is a small group tasked to find examples of people who are contributing to the game and SC4 Devotion.  This group includes SC4 Devotion staff and a few other members. The process includes all of SC4 Devotion forums and the LEX. It includes all its members and does not single out or favor any individual, group, or team. Other sites have their own recognition systems. It is not our goal to emulate them.
-Karma points are usually given as close to the actions as possible.  So keep your eyes out and let us know when you see it.
-Don't feel bad about not receiving Karma, instead strive to merit it.

With all that said, we're going to lock this thread in about 24 hours from now.  If anyone has any more thoughts or concerns on the matter feel free to PM any Admin or Global Moderator.  Please include more than one staff member to be sure you get a reply as soon as possible.



As for the LEX uploading badge idea, this seems like something that can be implemented.  A badge will need to be designed first and then the process of actually adding it to each concerning member will be time consuming, so everyone will need to be patient for that.


On behalf of the SC4 Devotion Staff

[Haljackey]

Thanks for taking the time to revisit the karma system and reading our comments concerning it. That's what I strived for when I started the topic.

I'm fine with having this thread locked now that it's purpose has been fulfilled. I would request however, that a general karma discussion thread be set up so that we have a place to discuss any new ideas or related developments regarding the karma system.

Thanks and all the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)