Avenue transit enabling

[smoncrie]

I have been away for a long time, but I remember that a major problem with transit enabling lots for avenues was the avenue median props would go all over your lot.

I now have a partial solution to this problem.   To test it, I fixed marrast's avenue under rail lot to make traffic actually go under the rail. It is now fully UDI capable.

Is anyone interested in this, or has the problem with transit enabling avenues already been solved?

[Diggis]

I think chrism did some work on the Marrast underpasses, but i don't know exactly what sorry.

[Jonathan]

Sounds cool, I'm interested so would love to get my hands on it and I'm quite sure others are as well.

[Andreas]

What exactly did you change in order to get rid of the avenue median props? As said, Chrisim and I was working on those a few month ago; feel free to download the most current version from SimCityKurier (file is both in German and English): http://kurier.simcityplaza.de/details.php?file=105 This version is fully pathed and UDI compatible. For the TE, we used oneway road instead of avenue, so the avenue median props don't show up anymore. If there's another solution, I'm interested to hear it.

[Chrisim]

Hi Smoncrie
It's great that you are back in the community 
And that you are interested by the Marrast underpasses - these were the reason why I started modding nine months ago 

Andreas and me spent quite some time on these underpasses. The avenue median props problem was circumvented by using oneway instead of avenue  How do you do it?
Published is the "Marrast Underpasses Updated by SFBT BSC" that can be downloaded from the LEX and SimCityKurier. Quite popular, together more than 4500 Downloads in three months since the upload/update on 24 December 2007  .
This set contains the original and additional models:
Original - Underpasses by Marrast (modded)
Marrast_Road_Rail_Underpass_ad746f7c.SC4Lot - Road under rail
Marrast_Avenue_Rail_Underpass_2d76b8d4.SC4Lot - Avenue under rail
Marrast_Avenue_Avenue_Underpass_8d8432fc.SC4Lot - Avenue under avenue

Original - Underpasses by Zilfondel (modded)
Marrast_Road_DualRail_Underpass_0db11e2b.SC4Lot - Road under dual rail
Marrast_Avenue_DualRail_Underpass_0db1320e.SC4Lot - Avenue under dual rail

New Underpasses by SFBT
Marrast_Road_Highway_Underpass_d3d8bbe3.SC4Lot - Road under ground highway
Marrast_Avenue_Highway_Underpass_8ef308d3.SC4Lot - Avenue under ground highway
Marrast_Street_Rail_Underpass_869325b5.SC4Lot - Street under rail
Marrast_Street_DualRail_Underpass_b4228164.SC4Lot - Street under dual rail
Marrast_Street_Highway_Underpass_d422a7d7.SC4Lot - Street under ground highway
Marrast_Oneway_Rail_Underpass_6bdabf44.SC4Lot - Oneway under rail
Marrast_Oneway_DualRail_Underpass_c8e5e5d1.SC4Lot - Oneway under dual rail
Marrast_Oneway_Highway_Underpass_154c02e6.SC4Lot - Oneway under ground highway

We are working on more underpasses. Still in Beta (in the SFBT test center under Chrisim - you have access) are:
Underpasses under tram-avenue:

Wide rail underpasses for Xannepan's Gare du Nord:

Tram-Avenue underpasses:

and, still in development, tram underpasses.

Although being fully UDI, these underpasses still suffer from one problem: Vehicle automata on the lower network disappear when below ground level and re-appear afterwards. The cars become invisible whilst they are below ground level (except UDI vehicles that are always shown, in green). This is visible on the tram-avenue picture above: a car is just vanishing, just its green rear is still visible ...
Apparently you found a solution  , because only one of your automata does disappear. I would be very interested to learn how you achieved this 

[smoncrie]

I do have another way to get rid of the avenue median props. The median props only show up on straight sections of avenue, so I don't use any straight sections!

I use avenue ring roads as shown in the pictures above. This solution only works for lots where the length is divisible by 2.  The Marrast lot's width is 7, but the rail tiles don't count, so the effective width is 6.  If you don't want to wait to see automata crossing the lot, you need to click with the avenue tool on the rings (this the equivalent of dragging a network tool over other transit enabled lots)  Finding the exact spot need to click on the rings is a bit tricky. I did say this was a Partial solution!

Yes the vehicles are visible underground. To do this, I created and rendered a B.A.T. model that approximated what Marrast used originally. Then I removed the newly rendered textures, and replaced them with the rendered textures from Marrasts model, producing a 3d version of Marrast's model! Unfortunately this process did not work if the new model's LODs extend under the rail, so the vehicles disappear as the go under the rail. It IS possible (with some effort) to fix this.  Note that this LOD problem does not apply to new B.A.T. models.


[edit] Chrisim,  do you mean that the vehicles are green underground for Marrast lots, or for lots with new B.A.T. models?

[Andreas]

Ahh, that's a quite ingenious way to get rid of the median props - great idea! 

As for UDI, all UDI vehicles show up in green while they are passing the lot (underground), like they do when covered by buildings. So it's not limited to new models, but it works with the current ones as well.

Looking at the Big Dig lots, I think it's not such a good idea to create models with a costum LOD. Ok, the cars stay visible, but unfortunately, there are various graphical glitches, which makes the model looking ugly. Personally, I prefer a beautiful looking, crisp model that has only "fake" underground parts anytime over one that is plagued by the game's graphical limitations when it comes to underground models.

[Chrisim]

That's also a clever way to avoid the avenue props . I would say that both ways are partial solutions. To enable the pathes, in your case you have to find the exact spot to plop the avenue, in our case you drag two one-way roads.

Yes the vehicles are visible underground. To do this, I created and rendered a B.A.T. model that approximated what Marrast used originally. Then I removed the newly rendered textures, and replaced them with the rendered textures from Marrasts model, producing a 3d version of Marrast's model! Unfortunately this process did not work if the new model's LODs extend under the rail, so the vehicles disappear as the go under the rail. It IS possible (with some effort) to fix this.  Note that this LOD problem does not apply to new B.A.T. models.
[edit] Chrisim,  do you mean that the vehicles are green underground for Marrast lots, or for lots with new B.A.T. models?

We did not change the geometry of Marrast's S3D model of the underpass, just the textures. Marrast's underpasses are flat, the impression of depth is just an illusion. Therefore, automata disappear below ground level, but they reappear after passing the underpass. For UDI, the automata do not disappear below groundlevel for Marrast's model, they just become green and are also visible below the rail. Try it out.

As far as I understand, you changed the geometry of the 3D model and gave depth to it. Jeronij did create a similar model a few years ago (it's on the LEX). And there are Buddybud's underpasses that are also similar in type. Automata do not disappear as long as they remain above the 3D model. The advantage of a real 3D model is that automata are always displayed. However, there is often a graphics glitch - under certain circumstances everything below zero (of the lot) is replaced by grass - only after a switch to an underground level map the game will correct this glitch.

So for both approaches, annoyances remain. In one case (Marrast's flat model) automata are invisible when below ground level. In the other case (3D models with depth below zero) a bug of the game does often cause those parts of the model below ground level to be invisible. It's probably a matter of taste, which case you prefer.

[smoncrie]

Andreas, I did what I thought was usual for such lots.  You need to plop the lot on an exiting rail, click on the avenue rings, and switch to and from a data view.

The UDI vehicles do NOT turn green except under the rail.  Perhaps this is because I removed the lot base textures by removing their LotConfigPropertyLotObjectData properties from the lot exemplar.

I did not do a lot of testing,  but I did not see any graphical glitches, except for the usual need to switch to and from a data view to make the underground parts visible.

[smoncrie]

Chrisim,

I agree with everything you said.  My Marrast models are now 3D.

However,  if you wait awhile, I found that you do not need to click on the avenue rings.

[edit] Probably I did it the way I did was because I was working with jeronij when he created his lots.

[Chrisim]

... I did not see any graphical glitches, except for the usual need to switch to and from a data view to make the underground parts visible.

That's the graphical glitch I referred to. I hate it because this glitch does often reappear - therefore I am only using fake flat instead of real underground models. It's a matter of taste.
I am not sure what Andreas was referring to.

[Jonathan]

Is it not possible to make this a puzzle piece, therefor the model would be truely 3D?

Or if that does not work, it may be possible to create a moving model prop (these moving models are True 3D on lots) , for example the tea cup ride and ferris wheel in the state fair or the wind turbine blades. but the moving part would either be hidden or so small that you can not see it?

From what I understand though this is quite a complicated process so it will probably not be worth it.

Just some ideas
Jonathan

[smoncrie]

Since we are talking about transit enabling, I would like to mention that I created a lot with a rail U, and a road that crosses over the rail, on a bridge, forming a diagonal rail, diagonal road intersection.  Everything works OK, including UDI except that most of the train automata disappear when they pass through the lot.

I hesitate to show it because it is still in a very primitive state.

[Chrisim]

@smoncrie
Diagonal underpasses would be great - we really miss them 

@Warrior
Do you remember this discussion? I am preparing to give it a try, as soon as I have some time for it (i.e. in a few months ).

[smoncrie]

Warrior, I am not totally sure what you mean, but a network model's underground parts simply disappear into the ground; you would not see the descending ramps, just grass. So a network model is actually worse than a lot in this case.  You could make a model that looks like it is going into the ground, but the automata would be green, the same as for a flat model in a lot.

Note: I have not actually tried partly underground network models on puzzle pieces, but I have tested bridge models. I doubt there is any difference between the two.

Chrisim, be very careful with diagonal transit enabling!   When I was testing such lots I had a lot of CDT's.   I believe the problem is that, in a lot, traffic may follow many other routes that are not specified by paths or transit enabled tiles.  For traffic going diagonally across a large lot there are MANY staircase routes of equal length.  I found that 3x3 lots were safe, but my computer was much less powerful back then.

The extra routes in a lot are real.  In my rail x road lot, I found that if you put a transit enabled road tile in the wrong place inside the rail U, it can block all rail traffic.  It can do this even when it is not touching any rail tile.  All it needs to do is block rail traffic where it cuts across inside the U.  This blockage occurs even though I tried to prevent it by making the U very shallow. UDI does not get blocked because UDI follows the paths correctly.

On a totally different topic, have you tried using rotation in transit enabled lot tiles to reduce the number of custom paths?  For an avenue or a pair of one-way roads, you can rotate all tiles on one side by 180 degrees and use most of the same custom paths that the other side uses (in reverse order).

[kassarc16]

Nice work there smoncrie. Needing to transition from one-way to ave sucks up a tile and screws up placement of ATLs in my designs most of the time, though these underpasses are all stil awesome to have!

One thing to note: a side-effect of your method seems to place the automata in above the light poles, like the truck in the second picture, but I don't mind since it's less of a realism breaker than seeing cars sink into the ground.

[Jonathan]

I meant, what about putting a True3D model (network model) on a lot, that way you don't have the LODs that make cars disappear and you don't have the model disappearing in the ground.

You said you can animate models?
Well when you animate a model it becomes True3D (network model) so there are no LODs, well if you animate the underpass in someway like where you can't see or very very small it will become visible beneath ground, visually unanimated, no disappearing cars (no LODs), and still be on a lot.

[Chrisim]

On a totally different topic, have you tried using rotation in transit enabled lot tiles to reduce the number of custom paths?

Yep, for example for http://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1525Xannepan's Bourse de Commerce.