Regarding the Uploading of Installers

[Andreas]

I'm positive that there are many other people who have many other reasons for disliking installers. Unfortunately, their often our only choice and we have to install everything one-by-one when the uploaders could just include the readme in the description and use DATs and ZIPs. You said you spend more hours to package the installer, but why? Wouldn't it be easier to ZIP it up? Again, I see no professionalism in the fact that we spend lots more time having to use installers than mass extracting with something like WinRAR or with the built-in feature in Windows Explorer.

Creating the atual installer doesn't take long, with the Clickteam installer, you can do that in less than a minute. I chose the usage of installers simply because the logistics is much easier for me - there are no support issues where to install the files, there's rarely a file conflict, or anyone complaining that they can't find outdated files (in case an updated version is released). Do you really know how large the percentage of skilled users is among the SC4 players? I'm using installers to avoid potential support issues, and so far, there rarely were any, which makes me think it's the right thing I'm doing.

[krbe]

It's a long time since I did much installing (other than SC files nowadays), but I seem to remember that at least Microsoft had the option of a silent install -- and since I anyway (almost) never change the default values (at least when I know who I'm dealing with), wouldn't it be possible to make a batch script with an /s switch to do the nine clicks it takes to install an object (or 945 clicks to install 105 objects).

[jmyers2043]

@ Simmaster07

Ah – a challenge. I like challenges.

Here is my jmyers2043 commercial office download. I have a laptop at my right hand with an online stop watch ready to time how long it takes to download and install these files. What I hope to do is to start the stop watch then click download and see how long it takes.


Time is running so I'll click the download button.



I've not downloaded any files for the past two years to save it to my HD. I simply click 'Open'



The file downloads to a temp file on my computer and the PKZip window opens automatically. I click to execute the exe file.



The installer screen opens and I have to click the 'next' button twice before I can click the 'start button'. Right now I'm up to six mouse clicks.



The files are deployed to Plugins\BSC\Jmyers\  and I would be done at this point but I see there is an optional readme file. I assume that most people wish to see if there are any dependencies that need downloaded. Plus most BSC readme's detail the file deployment paths for those who have special organizational skills. So I'll click one last time to read the readme.   



The readme opens. Time to click 'stop' button of that online stop watch. Presto! The process took 22 seconds. The files are safe and sound. These commerical offices will function properly in the game.  



Now, I don't know about you but I am hard pressed to agree that installers take a lot of time. And I'm a monkey's uncle if you can go through the process faster because I've already beaten you. You have to click on my documents, then SimCity4, then Plugins, then some special folder you have or will have to create before you can drag and drop the four commercial office files.

What am I saying? These files are free. You didn't pay one cent for them. Those of us who created them and uploaded them earn no money from them. SimCity is supposed to be something one does to pass the time and be entertained. But apparently you're all stressed out about it. And if the worst thing that you can say is that you have to do a few extra mouse clicks to move files where you want them ... then what I have to say is ... people like you burn me up and I wish that you'd go to some other web site and take your attitude with you.


- Jim

[deadwoods]

I recall the stink over at ST when BSC first started using Installers. This and the dependency argument is something that keeps coming around year after year.

When we first started using them, we were going through an explosion in custom content and there was a lot of noise about where all this custom content was and version control. We had a lot of internal conversations about how best to help the general community (and ourselves given that we knew we'd be maintaining our content and would invariably be releasing updates) and decided to try to establish a standard Plugins structure to make management easier. The best way to implement this was through an installer. Implemented correctly it would suggest where to put content (and update it later on) but not force the end-user into that structure. All the installer-based downloads I've used of late still let you decide where to put stuff, and I've had to re-arrange a lot of stuff based on the DVD structure.

The readme's were also in response to the wide range of technical skills of the general SC community. There was a lot of noise about what dependencies were needed, what the lots behaved like etc. when many uploaders were just including their lot and model files in a zip. Some folks were using text-based readme's (including myself) but human nature being what it is, often people didn't read them and then flooded the forums with questions covered in the readme's. So we moved to HTML-based readme's and set the installer to automatically display it at the end. As Andreas' mentions, it's not biggie if you don't want to read it, but we were just trying to encourage people through the path of least resistance to have a quick read.

For a while we were releasing lots in both forms; installer-based and zipped (the Amsterdam Centraal Station comes to mind) but it's too much overhead for the creator. We chose to go down the path that helps the greatest number of end-users.

As to Mac vs. PC, that argument will never die. I'm guessing the proportion of SC4 Mac users has grown significantly over the past few years.

This is one of those "can't please all of the people all of the time" situations. Personally I believe use of installers has more pro's than con's.

[travismking]

People that post things like this really make me angry sometimes... Creators spend hours upon hours of their free time to make these things for us to download and use for FREE, and they want to complain about something as simple as an installer? seriously, get over it, or dont download them

[Blue Lightning]

Ah the sound of a healthy debate... with a few bumps here and there like a repaved road, but I digress.

Well, from my view, I could care less if an installer is used or not. Of course, it's nice if its something like the NAM, but otherwise, it makes little to no difference to me. Sure, it does get annoying after a while when you're doing a mass install and your browser is filled with readme's that you don't want to read while you're trying to browse the web at the same time (in my case, I rarely ever need to anymore, seeing as I haven't downloaded any dependency in at least 2 months now, since I have a major base established, and I normally use the links provided in the description if there's one I don't have. And of course I usually get all the info I need for my purposes from the download description), but one can simply (on most newer browsers) mass close tabs with a few clicks.

Installers do look more professional, I will say that (though those who tend to fly through the installer or are more of a function-over-looks person won't care as much), and if you're not big on organizing your plugins folder into Mods, BATs, etc folders, they usually do a good job. Now if you are an organizer, then I can see how installers would get annoying. But that's the price to pay for cleanliness. After all, where is a dusted counter without the sneezing and coughing?

That's all I can really add right now.

(Sidenote, is it just me or do I like to use parentheses...)

[mattb325]

@ Simmaster07, I can assure that using installers saves the creator time in troubleshooting issues post download.

I cannot tell you how often I receive PMs for my plain old 'zipped' files over on ST (which do have a read-me) about dependencies, brown boxes etc etc etc.

On this site, where I use installers, I do not field such questions because the installer simply puts all the files where they are needed.

Clearly, given the amount of troubleshooting PMs that I field on ST which end in my asking "have you unzipped the model file into your plugins?" not every user has done that, nor is every user capable of following your method.

Given the amount of my time I have spent creating the model files for you to use, the amount of my time I have taken to make the lot files for you to use, the amount of my time I have taken to test that grow/plops/other all behave as expected, the amount of my time I take to list dependencies in a read-me and the amount of time taken by scruitineers to ensure uploads on this site are also of high quality, again all for you to use for free, I think that as the creator of these free files, I deserve a break in fielding end user errors, wouldn't you agree?

You say you are only 13, so I will cut you some slack for the blinkers you are obviously wearing in purporting your stance. However I will re-iterate, it's not your time, but mine.

[psander5]

I should start by saying that by 'complaining' about installers people aren't saying that that means the download is not worth downloading.  If some people find installers tiresome and annoying as opposed to other methods, then surely they have the right, in a polite society, to put their reasons to the community... even if it is ultimately always going to be in vain.  I don't think that telling them to go away and shouting them down is the right way to get them to listen to your rebuffs.

Personally, I too prefer simple zipped folders.  I have my own system for organising my plugins, and I have a plugin folder shortcut on my desktop so I can simply drag a folder/file from the zip straight into my plugin folder or one of the categorical sub folders I have... minimal clicks.  When I have installers that adds a few more steps into that process, in that I have to go through the installer's rigmarole and install to a new folder on the desktop, then move the files manually to where I want them and hunt out the other documents if they were sent to a different place.  I always read the readme's but I don't tend to keep them once I've read them and got the content working.  I began this paragraph with the word 'personally', and this is my personal experience of installers.  If you ask me for a straight answer I'll say that I don't like them and would prefer not to have them.  I'm not arrogant enough to claim that my methods are correct, the best or most common, but they do mean that Installers and I clash slightly. 

However, the content is nearly always worth this minor annoyance, and I'd never have complained about it... but then I saw this thread and another and realised I wasn't alone.  I'm not expecting anyone to change their methods... SC4 communities of all stripes have a tendency for stubbornness in my experience... just hear it, don't belittle us, politely disagree and once it dies down, carry on as before.  Happy days!

To qualify the value of my opinion; I am a creator of custom content, a modest one I'll admit, but a creator nonetheless.  To date I've not received a single PM or comment regarding the difficulty of finding the plugins folder.  When that first PM or comment comes I'll answer it with no qualms.  I try to keep my descriptions and readme's as clear and comprehensive as possible, and so far it's worked for me.  If someone who's very new to the game still needs help after that, then I'm happy to oblige.  We should all be willing to help newcomers... it's just the friendly thing to do.  When a dependency link gets broken it still has to be updated, whether you use installers or plain old zip files.  So long as you keep info accurate and up do date a creator shouldn't be getting any PMs about finding dependencies! I guess I might expect some mischievous spam to hit my PM box following this

It's worth also noting that the 'installer annoyance' (meant subjectively, not as a sweeping definition) only really applies when I'm installing a batch of files in one sitting.  Then the extra clicks can get quite tedious.  Single installs don't cause any real issue for me.  I just put up with it and keep quiet.

My opinion of the 'professional appearance' of installers is just that.  They appear more professional than zipped folders.  In my opinion they aren't.  Theoretically you could pack up any old junk into an installer (which, as has been said, is easy and quick to do), and to some that would make it look more professional and give it more perceived value.  You can put lipstick on a pig... but it's still a pig! Conversely, a great upload doesn't need an installer to make it complete.  Some of the very best and most respected stuff across the whole community, doesn't come in installers. Equally, some more of the very best and most respected stuff does! It doesn't really matter in the end... but we can at least talk about it calmly and civilly, and not take our different opinions as personal attacks. Can't we?

I don't want to post all this without adding that I completely appreciate everyone's hard work, especially since I know from personal experience how much work goes in to creating stuff for this game.  My opinion of delivery methods just differs... that's all!

[Andreas]

Thanks for the detailed and level-headed reply, psander5. I certainly respect other people's opinions, and I can understand very well that some of them consider it as quite a nuisance to click through those installers, instead just right-click a ZIP file and select "Extract", esp. if you want to install more than a handful of downloads at a time. Just recently, I did a mass download after not downloading anything for several months, and I think I was clicking through about one hundred installers at least. Admittedly, that was pretty tiresome, but then again, it also had its advantages.

As I mentioned above, I made my browser and the explorer window smaller, so I didn't have to switch back and forth all the time, and when I was done with installing everything, I went through the opened readme files in the tabs, one by one, checking the dependency links, and installed those that I didn't have so far. I found this rather comfortable compared to manually going through all new folders and open the readme file manually, but naturally, everyone has different preferences - unfortunately, there isn't really a method to please everyone.

My plugins folder is structured by the name of the creators, this makes it easier for me to find something, since I know very well who made a certain BAT or lot in most cases. Other people might have different methods of organizing their files, and I agree that for some playing styles, ordering folders by type is far better. But even though you use the default installation path and have to arrange your files manually after going through the installers, I think this step doesn't take that much extra time after all. You know exactly where to look, and just drag the individual subfolders to the proper place. I'm not sure how this would be done faster when extracting from a ZIP file; somehow, you must move the source files into your folder structure as the first step.

The following is rather speculative, but it's really something you wouldn't find out anyway: While it might be true that the number of support issues isn't higher when using ZIP files rather than installers, you never know when the potential user is giving up trying to install your files. Novice users might know installers, but can't handle ZIP files, or the other way round (the latest Windows versions display ZIP files as folders by default, so at least they would see the EXE immediately, and it would be just a double-click away). Who knows if they are able to send you a PM if they have a problem, maybe they would just delete your file and try something different. From all the registered users here or at Simtropolis, only a minor fraction is active in the forum discussions, and apart from dead user accounts, most of them probably just signed up in order to being able to download files.

So after all, it's just a matter of taste, and I think while it's certainly legit to express your personal opinion, it's somewhat moot to complain about this, and ask (or even demand) others to change their preferred method. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages, and I hope I was able to smooth out some of the arguments that were mentioned in the first posting. As for the "professional" look, that's merely cosmetics after all, but I'd say it looks rather neat to have an installer with the team logo, and a nice splash screen. It's an extra effort that I do for each SFBT upload, because I feel that a nice BAT or lot that took many hours to create should be presented in an appropriate way.

[Jonathan]

Personally I find installers alright, however I really do not like that they don't work on Mac but I think that's more of a problem on the Mac side than the SC4 side. Also installers were designed for programs and applications, and now if I have 2 pieces of software that do the same job and only one is an installer, I'll choose the one without an installer, because it's simpler.

However plugins are slightly different, and ideally they should be built into the game so that it's just download and activate. So installer fits with the plugin system better.

However personally I'd prefer some direct from the website "installer", so that its cross platform less time wasted and smoother installation.

[Gringamuyloca]

I would like to thank all those who so willingly share their creations. I do not pause to think about how the creator chooses to share her/his custom content... I am so thankful that the 'Creators' are willing to share their time and effort.
For me it is magic... that I can customize... because there are so many people, from all walks of life, that contribute their TIME, art, knowledge, skills, professions and best of all the desire to share.. for free! 

Only bad things happen fast... good things take time.. time to install correctly, exe... zip... dependency... essential read mes, who am I to complain?! 

At this time  I do not have the time, patience, knowledge, or skill to modify MY game in the manner that awesome CUSTOM content contributors have allowed me to explore... from the mountain to the the desert, from the farm to metropolis.... dirt tracks to multi lane highways... earth to mars... and if you can't find what you are looking for... more than one person is willing to help! 

I truly do not understand why anyone would dare ask for more than what is so freely shared!...

[Darkany]

Howdy, speaking from the perspective of someone who hasn't created or uploaded any custom content, either works for me.  I just recently, within the past couple of months, started to play SimCity4 again.  I bought it several years ago and installed it on my laptop.  It didn't run well, so I uninstalled it and put it on the shelf to gather dust. 

One evening, I was sitting in my office bored, and the box set of Simcity4 just happen to catch my eye and I thought to give it another chance (I have better laptops now).  I installed it again and started playing (and yes, it runs alot better now).  I was having creative issues and decided to look online for some tips, possibly a website that could help.  Google > SimCity4 > welcome to the world of custom content !!!    I had absolutely no idea this was out there.  Now, after 4GBs of downloads and hours/days/weeks of installing, organising, researching, deleting, beating my head against the wall and almost throwing my laptop across the room on several occasions, I felt compelled to throw in my 2 cents, tho a few weeks late.

I do really like the plugins with installers.  I started from scratch a couple of months ago building and organising my plugin files.  For the first few hundred, I just dragged and dropped, or used the default install path.  In my anxiousness to check all the new custom stuff, I didn't fully read the HTMLs and soon discovered lil brown boxes all over the place.  I realized what "dependencies" were for at that point lol.

Anyway, I've gone through several different ways to set up and organize my folders and I found that using the installers default path and system was the simplest and one of the best ways to avoid loading something in more than one folder.  Its not perfect, but its a great base to start with.

I'm not going to quibble over whether the custom content creators should use an installer or just zip it up.  For me, if you guys are willing to spend the time to create and debug the content, I can spend the time needed to load it.

Finally, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that has put forth their time and effort to enhance this game, you guys are awesome.

Thanks,

Joe

[jsoderba]

The most annoying thing about installers to me is that they all seem to want elevation for no reason at all, since plugins should be installed in the user's profile in the normal case. Of course once you've entered an admin user's password you find that it tries to install into the admin's profile. So you have to navigate all the way from the Computer root to find your own Plugins folder. That's a lot of unnecessary clicks. Then some of the crappier plugins not only force open their README, but they open it in IE rather than your default browser. What's that all about?

Most of this is presumably down to the crap installer program most uploaders seem to use, but I would hope they could find a less obviously broken alternative.