new "real" Sim City in 2013

[strucka]

What if you don't have an internet connection? I mean, yes most people in North America and Europe have it. But it's far from 100% even far from 90%, so this is actually quite discriminatory to those. I mean what's the point of these internet thingies? I'm sure it's great to play games on the net, especially games specially designed for that. We've all figured by now that city simulation doesn't really do multiplayer very well, at least some of us have (Monte Cristo incl.). All these publishers are using the internet to fight piracy. And mostly nothing else. And that's a fight they will never win this way. If someone from EA is reading this:
Make a good game and people will eventually buy it. Instead of wasting half the money just for good piracy protection, that lasts about 6 seconds.

On another note. What makes a city sim really good for me? Public transportation and most of all realistic bridges and viaducts. I just recently figured why Cities XL doesn't break it for me. Look at those bridges... I mean seriously? Deleted the game two days ago. Definately not buying that crap. 3 years, 3 upgraded versions and still not worth a cent.

[mike3775]

Guys, the article got revised to say that the game requires an initial connection with the Origin servers, rather than constantly requiring a connection, so if your internet connection goes down, you'll be able to still play it. It's par for the course with that sort of DRM.

But, I get the feeling this is only being implemented because of the expanded multiplayer functionality that Maxis want to put into the game... so we're really gaining some and losing some.

It's not the end of the world, folks. I'm inclined to wait and see what they try to screw us over with rather than making such an irrational decision about not buying the game, right now, more than a year from release.

But why should I have to allow a game to go online to play, even if I can log off and still play.  Seems a waste of my time having to go through logging in, then having to log off, just to play.  And what guarantee is there that you will really be logged off as well?   

I should have the option of going online to play if I want, not be FORCED to log in then off to play the game.  Why don't they just come out and say this is to try and prevent the game from being pirated?  As that is the real reason why they are doing it, but are to chicken!@## to say so, because they know they risk alienating many people who are against DRM in every little thing(especially after the bull!@#$ Sony pulled with their CD's a few years ago).  I never play the original disc's(same with movies and CD's), I always make a copy and use those to play, but I will not be able to with this game if you have to go online before playing.  Sorry with 9 kids running around my house, I can't afford to be replacing scratched discs over and over like they seem to want people to do with this DRM crap.

[NCGAIO]

If you depend on me will not take a cent ... if to be signed in to play so why buy a game I was content to spend time in the dozens of on-line that plague the network.

Incredible that this will continue happening. If this does not work for Microsoft or with their systems (the copies of the Windows8 say) why someone will insist on it.

I might even be wrong but I think most of today playing Simcity has no need of multiplayer. Nor do I see the reason in a city simulation game ... is a typical standalone game.

The reason for the stubbornness is obvious ... the clink of coins entering the box. Then if it fails it just shut down the service.

I think the negative impact this news will show ... especially in pre-sales ... what the community want to add that they think about it!

[macvirt]

Well, technically you are not buying the game. You are buying use of services and access to, and a limited right to use those through specified methods & means.

Ofcourse, it's something which stateside is perfectly legal, in the EU that is very different, something EA still hasn't finished negotiating about with one of the Commissions.

Either way, there's no point complaining about not being allowed to do with a game you buy the way you want to use it. Because you don't buy the game, only the use of it.

[NCGAIO]

Ok! very well explained ... Now I wonder how many copies of this license to use the EA could sell it explained this way?

If someone trusts recommend reading

http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/topic/48600-simcity-to-require-always-on-connection-to-origin/page__view__findpost__p__1235285

[Shark7]

Guys, the article got revised to say that the game requires an initial connection with the Origin servers, rather than constantly requiring a connection, so if your internet connection goes down, you'll be able to still play it. It's par for the course with that sort of DRM.

But, I get the feeling this is only being implemented because of the expanded multiplayer functionality that Maxis want to put into the game... so we're really gaining some and losing some.

It's not the end of the world, folks. I'm inclined to wait and see what they try to screw us over with rather than making such an irrational decision about not buying the game, right now, more than a year from release.

In the end, to me it does not matter.  Requiring me to connect to a server to play a single-player, offline game is a deal breaker.  If SC5 requires me to register and connect to Origin to play, then it is dead on arrival as far as I am concerned. 

[macvirt]

I feel we really should take a moment to realise something.

"We" - as in old timers, modders, simcity veterans and armchair strategists - are NOT the target for SimCity 5.

The target for SimCity 5 is an audience with growth perspectives based on casualisation, cross media connectivity, enablement of growth of preferred platform (origin) and enablement of secondary monetary streams.

Some of "us" are a part of that. I suspect that most of us are not. I could be wrong on that last part, but we should not forget that SimCity 5 shares a great deal with the original franchise, but it is based on a completely different set of paradigms: that of online interactivity + online interdependancy + monetisation.

I get the idea that most people generally being customers tend to forget something: it's not a game, it is a business. The game is not made for the gamer, but for the potential customer. This is something EA has been looking at very hard, it was even a major topic at a discussion between some EA and 2K Games guys last GDCC.

To keep it simple, put the project venture of SimCity 5 in an analogue light of Civ 5. Maybe that is more simple to reflexively grasp. Look at Civ 4 the well modded harder core carried game, and look at the transition to Civ 5. It's a well established playbook these days, that transition in game development and Publishing.

That's really a no brainer, this is EA. I know, individual devs of old are still around, and the name Maxis is around. Unfortunately, while that shows a lot, it says nothing at all. Game design is these days a simple case of tailoring creative drive to a well defined set of calculations for types, markets, methods, conditions and commercial opportunities.

"We" are a niche. One which can enable a lot of attention and pull for EA, but which simply is too small for anything but the angles of third party enablement and marketing.
EA can pull the marketing and channel the sales without that niche. It's just easier for them to run with. As for the modder interaction we will see there, I will be unsurprised to see after it all that technical focus was the limit of what was taken away by EA (who decide for the devs regardless of interaction with third parties). If anyone at some point wants to prevent a mistake there, you're going to have to provide quantifiable sales pitches for select user types other than the "oldies".

That does not mean that SC5 is going to be bad. It will be good. It will simply be better for more casual and networked user types. It will look good, you will find yourself connected and connectable, you will be able to boast to others and show off, and get additives via Origin.

As for the "online" part, y'all know the focus of EA on Origin. Y'all know the strategic aim. Keep in mind, you don't own what you think you buy.

[Shark7]

I feel we really should take a moment to realise something.

"We" - as in old timers, modders, simcity veterans and armchair strategists - are NOT the target for SimCity 5.

The target for SimCity 5 is an audience with growth perspectives based on casualisation, cross media connectivity, enablement of growth of preferred platform (origin) and enablement of secondary monetary streams.

Some of "us" are a part of that. I suspect that most of us are not. I could be wrong on that last part, but we should not forget that SimCity 5 shares a great deal with the original franchise, but it is based on a completely different set of paradigms: that of online interactivity + online interdependancy + monetisation.

I get the idea that most people generally being customers tend to forget something: it's not a game, it is a business. The game is not made for the gamer, but for the potential customer. This is something EA has been looking at very hard, it was even a major topic at a discussion between some EA and 2K Games guys last GDCC.

To keep it simple, put the project venture of SimCity 5 in an analogue light of Civ 5. Maybe that is more simple to reflexively grasp. Look at Civ 4 the well modded harder core carried game, and look at the transition to Civ 5. It's a well established playbook these days, that transition in game development and Publishing.

That's really a no brainer, this is EA. I know, individual devs of old are still around, and the name Maxis is around. Unfortunately, while that shows a lot, it says nothing at all. Game design is these days a simple case of tailoring creative drive to a well defined set of calculations for types, markets, methods, conditions and commercial opportunities.

"We" are a niche. One which can enable a lot of attention and pull for EA, but which simply is too small for anything but the angles of third party enablement and marketing.
EA can pull the marketing and channel the sales without that niche. It's just easier for them to run with. As for the modder interaction we will see there, I will be unsurprised to see after it all that technical focus was the limit of what was taken away by EA (who decide for the devs regardless of interaction with third parties). If anyone at some point wants to prevent a mistake there, you're going to have to provide quantifiable sales pitches for select user types other than the "oldies".

That does not mean that SC5 is going to be bad. It will be good. It will simply be better for more casual and networked user types. It will look good, you will find yourself connected and connectable, you will be able to boast to others and show off, and get additives via Origin.

As for the "online" part, y'all know the focus of EA on Origin. Y'all know the strategic aim. Keep in mind, you don't own what you think you buy.

Well fortunately for us, there are still independent publishers and developers that go after 'niche' markets that are abandoned by the corporate publishers.  Hopefully that will continue to be so, or my days of gaming will be living in the past...as in decades old games I still play.

[macvirt]

Agreed. I hope, and suspect, that this will become a stronger factor over the next few years. As much as marketeers of EA and other such companies like to talk at conferences about the importance of catering to newer audiences and strengthening trends in lock-in markets, there is a growing number of generations who have not just grown up with gaming but who will continue to do so - and thus be potential customers for decades to come. With their own habits, preferences, wishes & wants, etc.

It's just a little shame that many of the big names and concepts of games are locked in with those companies and not open to fresh publishers and developers. There will be new stuff over the years, I am a bit concerned though for whether they will be able to breach the established names in many genres.

Back to SC5, fully realising it is still early, I just cannot help putting the trends in this industry next to the strategic targets set by EA. Sofar there is a lot of similarity in marketing and communication between the script that was ran on the road from Civ IV to Civ V and that of SC4 to SC5.

I'm not saying it is bad, just different. "We" are not the target market, which is only logical after all.

For me personally, I am likely to draw my own line at the parts of online connection required on startup and the minefield of balance between solo focus and multiplayer design dependancies. I don't think even EA would be as dumb as to integrate modding markets with origin, but if they were that would be a dealbreaker too here.

Maybe it is silly, but SC4 is one of the few games where I can dig in as deep as I want, without having to take others into account and I can do it wherever I am as long as I have a bit of time and a laptop with me without having to get online and face the storms of social networking and the likes. It's a game you can puzzle with, and in.

[Kitsune]

I remeber 2k wanted to do the same with civ5... however it got changed and now requires a semi-on internet connection (ie... sorry for the horrible example... but when I left Canada I closed my laptop with steam running - and in Morocco I never had internet for most of my time but could still launch civ5.)

[mike3775]

Kitsune made a great point.  I recently purchased a new laptop, and the first thing I made sure of, was the fact that I could install a copy of SC4 onto it and play the game.  Everything else did not matter, because when I take my laptop with me when I go camping with the family, I use it as a bluray player or as a gaming system, and if I need to be able to go online to play SC5, its a no go to me, because I am not going to pay to have wireless access while camping with my family.

[Shadow Assassin]

I had a case where I was without an internet connection for two weeks, but could still play most of my Steam games, even if I logged in and out of Steam numerous times. The only games I couldn't play were games where multiplayer content made up the bulk of the game content.

I'm not sure how the Origin system works, but if EA are intelligent enough, they would employ a similar system (in fact, most Origin games available - exceptions are BF3 and ME3 - don't even require Origin to be launched!) with most of their games that don't require multiplayer functionality. Considering they're already ripping off Steam, this is probably the best option for them.

[Shark7]

I had a case where I was without an internet connection for two weeks, but could still play most of my Steam games, even if I logged in and out of Steam numerous times. The only games I couldn't play were games where multiplayer content made up the bulk of the game content.

I'm not sure how the Origin system works, but if EA are intelligent enough, they would employ a similar system (in fact, most Origin games available - exceptions are BF3 and ME3 - don't even require Origin to be launched!) with most of their games that don't require multiplayer functionality. Considering they're already ripping off Steam, this is probably the best option for them.

I've been in a similar situation due to a lightning strike at the local substation for the cable company.  Internet (and several of the cable channels) simply were not available for about a week until the new parts came in.  These are unforeseeable things that will happen no matter how good the 'grid' is.  Any technology can fail.  And it might not be something that can be fixed quickly or easily.  The way I see it, making something depend on not just 1 technology (IE electricity) but multiple technologies is flirting with disaster.

They say technology makes our lives easier...maybe its because I am old enough to remember life before home computers and the internet, but technology sure seems to have complicated things for me. 

[WC_EEND]

Just saw this in my youtube feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxTcm1YFKcU

PS: if a mod can embed the video in my post, feel free because I have no idea how to do so.

[apeguy]

This game is looking good so far, and the galssbox engine looks interesting. However, I will not be happy if when I buy this game, it is full of technical problems and glitches like SC4 was at first. While I can accept that all games will have errors occasionally, I think that maybe if Maxis had spent a little more time developing SC4, then there wouldn't be as many CTD's and other issues. While many of these bugs and glitches have been solved or patched by the community over the years, from what I've read and experienced over the years, there are still many technical issues with the game, some we can do nothing about. So with this in mind I hope that SC5 will be much more polished in terms of technical issues, which in turn should make life easier for custom content to be implemented into the game. If the game is more technically sound, then it will be more enjoyable to play.

[Lowkee33]

I wonder how the industrial agents know where the residentials zones are, looks random (or at least "go to a house that has a worker").  There also seems to be a disconnect between what industrial building sent the request and where the residential worker goes.  Seems like this combination could lead to industrial buildings that think their agent was successful, but then never get a resident to work there.

Otherwise "smoke effect" really makes me happy.

[jdenm8]

I wonder how the industrial agents know where the residentials zones are, looks random

From what I interpreted from the GDC presentation, it randomly follows roads looking for houses.

[ldvger]

So, going back for a moment to the issue of online/offline and multiplayer/solo player, what I have come to inderstand so far, from reading blogs and information posted on the SimCity web site, is that when playing online with the simulation running (in either solo or multiplayer mode) whatever you are doing in your city/region will be tracked by the game engine and added to a global "pool" in regard to resources.  In real life, it's true that no city exists in a vacuum...all living beings are dependent on each other to some degree or another and as cities are also living things, so too are they dependent upon each other.  If one raises the price of coal, others are affected, both within the city and in surrounding areas.  The ability to mimic this real life dependency of cities upon each other seems to be what has the folks at Maxis/EA in the throes of ecstasy and so many of us hard-core fans so upset. 

Let's face it, many of us are OCD control freaks of the highest degree and DO NOT want our city creations to change at the whim of third party input, whether it be based in simulations built into the game engine OR actual meddling by other players in the online environment the new game will be played in.  This online global pool of resources, if I understand the concept correctly, is going to force us into actually dealing with issues similar to what RL cities deal with rather just just keeping the game primarily in PAUSE mode, using the money cheat, and building/creating a work of software art rather than attempting to be good mayors.

Think of the majority of gorgeous Mayor Diaries included here on SC4D.  How many of them would survive unblemished if thier mayors unpaused thier games and allowed the simulation to run as programmed for even 15 minutes.  What would happen to 3RR?  What would happen to Antigone?  Many others are just not planned or designed to run in game...they are art and love, not true simulations. 

So for me, the problem becomes, if in the new game I have to log in to retrieve my city from the server, and then can log off ot play offline without interference, will my city be automatically updated ever time I open it online to reflect the changes that have occurred in the global resource pool since last I played?  I am thinking this will be the case.  So the coal plant I built the night before may be out of commission the next day due to other players conributing too much coal to the global resource pool during my absence.  And, if I am able to play and build offline in PAUSE mod, what will happen to my work when my play session is done?  Will I have to upload the changes to the servers to save my work?  Will the simulation require me to unpause before uploading?  Will there even be a way to play in PAUSE mod or will we be stuck running the simulation all the time, whether we want to or not?

This is the biggest question for me, at this point.  I play the majority of my game in PAUSE.  I rarely actually run the simulation.  I use the money cheat in ALL the cities in all my regions...my RL is horribly confined by financial realities, I don't want to be forced into balancing and entire city's budget as a part of "play".

EA/Maxis need to realize that actually running a realistic city is not the goal for most of us hard core fans of the franchise.  Real lfe mayors get paid a lot of money to run thier cities because it's WORK, not play.  If I were interested in being a real life mayor, I'd run for office.  SC4 isn't really even a game, it is, like Will Wright said so well, a toy.  It's a paintbox full of tools we use to create art, and which we also use as a base for creating new tools and ever expanding artistic capabilities.  If that is taken away from us, the new game dies a stillborn death, for this fan.

We're still a long ways out and many things can change between now and when the new game is released, so I remain cautiosly optimistic that EA/Maxis will address the many valid concerns being brought up by fans both on the fansites and in the official website forums.  I don' know if the dev teams read the forums on the fan sites, but I'm sure the do the ones on the official site...why else create them 12-18 months in advance of release if not to gain potentially valuable feedback from potential buyers? 

Perhaps we all need to shift our comments from this thread on SC4D over to the official web site forums?

Lora/LD

[NCGAIO]

... I'd run for office.  SC4 isn't really even a game, it is, like Will Wright said so well, a toy.  It's a paintbox full of tools we use to create art, and which we also use as a base for creating new tools and ever expanding artistic capabilities.  If that is taken away from us, the new game dies a stillborn death, for this fan.

So I think the game will not be what you expect lora.

These tools were created by the community after scrutinizing all the workings of the game. I see no chance of repeating that go into the new game ... I do not think it will be so modifiable and also because many of selfless that made possible to do it are no longer here.

The intention of the new multiplayer game and one as has been said here ... something like "Call your friends to play with you so we can earn more!"

Below is an excerpt from Game overview on the official website to think a little about how to play. Do so and would like it to be?

"Multiplayer

Work together with friends to build the region for the first time! The cities in your friends' region will directly interact with each other.

Want to be a good neighbor? Send fire trucks to help your friend in an emergency.

Want to be a bad neighbor? Produce mass pollution and watch your friends' Sims Become sick. "

Source: http://www.simcity.com/en_US/game/overview

[Tarkus]

Speaking from my perspective, my style of gameplay, even (especially) in what I show in my MD, has always had a heavy emphasis on building functional cities/regions.  When I undertake one of those massive roadwork projects in Tarkusian Cities, it's precisely because of the information that the game's traffic data (congestion map, traffic volume map, traffic query tool) that I make the upgrades.  And while I do make an effort to make things look nice, I've never been one just to make eyecandy for eyecandy's sake--I play the game, and I don't try to fake it.  I have used cheats in some region (mostly Moolah, and Zoneria to hide zones), but not always and not super-often, and in my most recent region ("Argentum 2.0"), I've forgone Moolah entirely.  I also don't plop buildings (except for those that are offered as rewards, and civic buildings).

While I can understand the concern over the online aspect--I myself haven't had internet in my apartment for basically the entire 4 years I've lived there (though I will only be living there another 2 months, so that will cease to be a concern) and the worry of a "shutdown" is not unfounded, I think their reasoning behind it has merit, and I don't think anyone can really say that they aren't listening to the community. 

People in the SC4 community have batted the word "realism" around as long as I can remember.  It has a wide variety of meanings to a wide number of people in this community, and often times, it's a primary goal for many of the SC4 players, including MDers.  Quite a number of those folks are ultimately only interested in some sense of "visual realism".  But as far as "realism" with respect the raison d'etre for the game--simulating a city/region and associated behaviors--they're absolutely correct that this bolsters it.  It's also worth noting that there are things out there like "cooperative play" regions, GRV/GRVII, CJ/MD Unions, and, perhaps most importantly, 3RR, that have proven popular and are trying to, within the limited means for doing so within SC4, trying to do the same thing.

Additionally, regarding the cloud-based thing--how many times have folks remarked about SC4 crashing and losing their work?  By all appearances, they've addressed it.

These tools were created by the community after scrutinizing all the workings of the game. I see no chance of repeating that go into the new game ... I do not think it will be so modifiable and also because many of selfless that made possible to do it are no longer here.

While it has been stated that the game won't initially be intended to allow modding, they've more or less confirmed that this would change down the road.  Folks like Ocean Quigley at Maxis are well aware of what the community has done, and have reiterated on multiple occasions that they get that.  Besides, we don't know just what the game will be capable of upon release. 

Of course, if you look at SC4, it didn't really allow modding out of the box either.  Here's how long it was after the game's initial release that certain "milestones" that basically made SC4 into what we now know it to be:

• SimCity 4 released January 14, 2003
• Simtropolis STEX (then "Map Exchange") opens March 31, 2003 (2 months after release)
• Lot Editor released in June 2003 (6 months after release)
• Rush Hour Expansion released September 22, 2003 (9 months after release)
• ilive's Reader reaches stable release in December 2003 (11 months after release)
• BAT Tool released sometime in late-2003/early-2004 (roughly 1 year after release)
• First STEX upload by SimGoober ("Ships At Anchor") released February 24, 2004 (1 year, 1 month after release)
• NAM Version 1 released April 24, 2004 (1 month, 3 years after release)
• Extremely basic RHW Version 1.2 released November 16, 2005 (2 years, 10 months after release)
• Three Rivers Region (3RR) starts at ST on March 12, 2006 (3 years, 2 months after release)

• SC4 Devotion opens in November 2006 (3 years, 10 months after release)

[/b]

• AntigOne by Badsim opened January 17, 2007 (4 years after release)
• First instance of "puzzle-drag technology", Draggable GLR in NAM Version 21, released on June 1, 2007 (4 years, 5 months after release)
• CAM 1.0 released July 31, 2007 (4 years, 6 months after release)
• First RHW with interchange functionality (Version 2.0) released January 1, 2008 (5 years after release)
• RAM Version 1.0 with Single-Track Rail released March 7, 2009 (6 years, 2 months after release)
• NWM Version 1.0 released May 9, 2010 (7 years, 4 months after release)
• First NWM with triple-tile networking (NWM Version 2.0) released September 15, 2011 (8 years, 8 months after release)

As you can tell by this timeline, it took quite awhile year before there started being any real substantive modifications to SC4, on the order of magnitude that we now take for granted.  Heck, there really weren't any custom buildings until a year after release, and no NAM until then, either.  We're posting on a site that didn't exist until almost 4 years after the game was released.  It takes awhile to get the infrastructure in place, and establish a "sense of necessity" for modding.

-Alex