The Trouble With Pense

[WannGLondon]

Hello all, I realize it has been a long time since I've been active, but I was wondering if anyone could maybe help me out. My region, Pense, has reached a population of around 2,300,000, and it is beginning to have trouble. There are commercial jobs in the central core, but no one seems to want to work there, even though there are homes abandoning on the outskirts and even in the inner city due to a lack of jobs? Now, I realize commute time could be an issue, but I have adjusted my Traffic Simulator many times, Very High (above European) and Ultra network capacity. I also have subway and bus and trains running throughout the region into my central core. Can anybody please help?

Here is an image:

[mattb325]

In addition to the fact that Sims won't travel across too many tiles to find work, I would suggest that you start zoning Industrial - agricultural -  as well manufacturing and hi tech.

It looks like you have no farms and comparatively very little industry: while I am aware that you use a demand mod, I'm surprised the region was able to grow this much before running into issues. Even though those demand mods can appear to increase commercial and other desirable demand within each city tile, my understanding is that this doesn't translate into region wide demand: hence why you have tanked.

Connecting the outer tiles of your map and then zoning I-Ag at the edges of your map, plus transitioning to other industry closer to the city outskirts (thereby enabling the sims will travel to these tiles for work rather than attempting to commute to the city core) might bring your natural demand back in balance.

[WannGLondon]

Thanks Matt, but I actually do not use a demand mod, it seems that sims were commuting into the core as Pense was developing, but as soon as I started adding other commercial areas and industries they have moved away from downtown. Now, I do agree, I must zone more agriculture and industry, but I guess my basic question is; how do I get sims to come back to the core? If more industrial and agricultural jobs are created, won't my sims leave going into the central city to get jobs closer to them in the industrial and agricultural areas? I would like my city to work as realistic as possible, where the majority of my work force works in the central city.

[WannGLondon]

Hey all, so it seems the 'Very High' traffic setting has kicked in and I am getting many commuters coming into the central core of Pense, but I have another question. Do the population and the amount of jobs offered have to match? (Does the game take into account people that simply do not work, or need to work?) Here is an example:

Obviously, the population is much greater than the jobs offered, is this healthy? Just wondering, help please.

[Swordmaster]

They do not have to match - remember only half of your sims need to find a job.

No jobs problems could be twofold: sims can't get to the jobs, or there are no jobs. Usually it's the former. I always try to get my sims employed on the same quad; if that's not possible in the neighboring quad at most, no further. To do this I usually ignore making road neighbor connections until quads are highly developed. (Or better, functional connections, since you always need some to alleviate caps. So I just have some stubs in a corner.)

That's of course a far cry from what you described, but I don't think it's really possible. Sims won't commute a long distance, no matter how good your transport systems are. Remember that your region isn't really a region - it's just connected quads.


Cheers
Willy

[APSMS]

It sounds like you're editing the traffic capacity values. What you need to edit are the max commuter time values, as well as perhaps the network speeds (though I don't think this is available from the TSCT, probably hidden in a .dat somewhere safe instead).

I'd look up some posts by z (the creator of simulator z and the TSCT). IIRC, he found that he was able to get Sims to commute several tiles to the core of his region and did it successfully (all commute times outside of the city are still listed as long, though). I can't find the particular post I'm looking for, but it's worth remembering that longer commuter times can lead to a greatly exaggerated effect of the eternal commuter bug, and that you'll have to go through great steps (often unrealistic ones) to make sure that this won't happen. It will cause false demand, abandonment, and possibly a broken region if done incorrectly.

I'd take Willy's advice and just accept the unrealism of the game (large cities are only 4km x 4km, which is smaller than most neighborhoods where I'm from). If you do decide to try to fix the "problem," I'd do some extensive forum searching, particularly posts by z and cogeo, as well as anything with the CAM traffic, eternal commuter bug, and travel times.

In my experience it's best to leave the max trip time alone, but you don't have to just take my word for it. Sorry for the bad news. There are ways you can make your city center seem vital without actually having it be so.

Hope this helps.

~Absalom

[z]

Actually, nothing in the TSCT needs editing; the traffic simulator starts out being fully optimized.  Most of the options in the TSCT are there simply so that people can customize the way their traffic patterns look; they have very little effect on the simulation, although extensive congestion can cause problems.  A few options are there because people want them, but changing them degrades the simulation.  And properties that aren't in the TSCT, such as speeds, should not be changed; they are already optimized, and changing them does nothing but degrade the simulation.

One of the goals of the traffic simulator design was to be as friendly to long distance commuting as possible.  This is why the maximum commute time is set to what it is.  (Remember that actually commute time is reset every time Sims cross borders, so the true maximum commute time is effectively infinite.)  One of the things I discovered was that a very high maximum commute time increases the probability that Sims will do intercity commutes.  Getting Sims to commute multiple tiles - like four or five - is difficult, but it has been done.  You need to build up really strong demand at your destination, and make sure that it is transmitted to Sims at their homes, generally by rotating play between all the participating tiles.  Sims are also more likely to do long commutes using faster transport methods.  I've also stressed in many places the importance of blanketing your cities with subways and stations if you want large cities or long commutes; otherwise, the traffic simulator's destination finder is much less likely to allow them, and abandonment due to commute time becomes more likely.

I guess my basic question is; how do I get sims to come back to the core? If more industrial and agricultural jobs are created, won't my sims leave going into the central city to get jobs closer to them in the industrial and agricultural areas? I would like my city to work as realistic as possible, where the majority of my work force works in the central city.

The key her is that if your Sims can find jobs close to them, they're going to take them.  I got the Sims to commute long distances in my Chicago region because I zoned it exactly like Chicago.  There's a huge core of commercial buildings in the CBD, and there's relatively little commercial jobs outside the core, at least compared to the population.  The amount of industrial zoning is quite small, at least in the part of Chicago I was working in.  So a lot of the Sims outside Downtown had to commute there because that's where the jobs were.  Nevertheless, this was not easy, and my region is still much more local than the real city.

So to summarize:  In order to get your Sims to commute as far as possible, you should pretty much leave the traffic simulator alone (although the Ultra setting may be useful for handling a lot of cross-regional traffic), you should build lots of subways and stops, and you should minimize the amount of commercial and industrial zones you have outside your core.

What you need to edit are the max commuter time values, as well as perhaps the network speeds (though I don't think this is available from the TSCT, probably hidden in a .dat somewhere safe instead).

Definitely not, to both of these.

I can't find the particular post I'm looking for, but it's worth remembering that longer commuter times can lead to a greatly exaggerated effect of the eternal commuter bug...

Not true.  The eternal commuter bug is primarily affected by where your city crossings are and where your jobs are.  You can even have intercity loops without eternal commuters if you keep your crossings away from the city corners and have jobs along the way that satisfy the Sims needs.

[APSMS]

I stand corrected. But it's nice to hear it from the master.

[WannGLondon]

Wow, Z, this actually does help a lot. You see my residential demand is very high, but only in the low-wealth and high-wealth areas, and I am not too keen on zoning those so maybe that is my problem. I do have subway stops all over the region, very effective in fact. And I guess I can tone it down on making industrial and commercial areas outside of the core. My demand for commercial and industrial is just so high, which makes me so inclined to zone more of those.

Also, with Pense, since it is based off of London, I have studied London very much and the city has a few industrial areas outside the core and along the Thames and many little 'main streets' with commercial shops (I think British-folk would call these Broadways or High Streets) and so I have zoned many of these areas, possibly attracting commuters away from the core.