How to control buildings to grow?

[Andreas]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, RippleJet. I remember the effect you described from the very first ploppables with jobs, namely the World Trade Center by rubik3. Due to its high number of CO-§§§ jobs, it really acted like a cheat, skewing the entire demand simulator and basically trashing the whole region if it wasn't ready to support such a behemoth. As you said, moderate plopping might work if the plopped buildings work in line with the stats, but inexperienced players will run into problems. If someone just wants to build an eyecandy city, plopping is certainly a good alternative to bulldozing unwanted buildings and waiting for the right one to grow. But for those who want to play the game as it was intended by the simulation engine, it's not really an alternative.

[buckbeach]

    Excellent information, even if you did bust my bubble of thinking plopping Commercials was the best thing since sliced bread.  I had already decided against any plop Residentials and except for a "Theme City" (lumber, mining, or such) I don't like plop Industrials.

I'm still to dumb to understand the tax base issue.  Can't figure out why in my test, residential tax incomes went so sky high.  But no matter, as I said I'm not crazy about using ploppables.

So I am back to my original dilemma of not being able to control the growables, especially the Commercials.  Ancient Society put out a great package of early growth commercials but the same ones grow every time.  Oh well maybe someday.

BTW where can I get that neat tool you have and are there instructions as to how to use it.

Now going back and re-read your post.

[RippleJet]

I'm still to dumb to understand the tax base issue.  Can't figure out why in my test, residential tax incomes went so sky high.  But no matter, as I said I'm not crazy about using ploppables.

Did you use Buggi's cheat code to plop the same growable buildings, or did you plop separate landmark versions of the buildings?
If they were separate buildings, they probably did not have the same building value as the growable counterpart.

BTW where can I get that neat tool you have and are there instructions as to how to use it.

It's attached to this post:  Census Repository Facility, Version 2
Be sure to read through that post completely before downloading version 2 which is attached at the very end of it.

[buckbeach]

Did you use Buggi's cheat code to plop the same growable buildings, or did you plop separate landmark versions of the buildings?
If they were separate buildings, they probably did not have the same building value as the growable counterpart.

No I didn't use Buggi's cheat code and I know for sure that several of my favorite earlier Commercials are Landmarks, Havoc Baby Chicks (and others), Nexis used Lumber, Small Lumber mill, Ma Country Cabins etc.  (Please excuse if these names aren't correct.

I'll have to learn how to use your tool and see if the there is any major impact with these.

[Ennedi]

For a plopped residential not to abandon right away, the desirability factors must be right when plopping.
That is the reason you have to plop them on top of an existing residential building with a good existing employment.

SC4 is a simulating game above anything else.
Whenever we want to control it and start plopping buildings, we are sidestepping the formulas for the simulation.

I have two questions:

1. I am a bit confused now. I asked for plopping on the top of existing buildings on the first page of this thread

1. If I will plop a growable residential building using Extra Cheats Plugin (first I zone the area, then appear a growable building, I bulldoze it and replace by other building from the same wealth group), will it work properly or not?

And received an answer from wouanagaine:

@Ennedi,
1.it will work for a short period of time, and you'll have the original building commuter, but at the end, it will dilapidate, there was a thread about that experiment on ST, don't have a link.

And now, if I understand RippleJet right, it seems I can plop growables using the Extra Cheat plugin without dilapidation, if I have good desirability factors. What is right, maybe there is any misunderstanding here?

2. Let's say I zoned a residential area for a planned building, I have proper desirability factors and the growable building appeared. Now I want to replace it by another growable using the cheat plugin. Which parameters must I take care about:
- the wealth level
- the number of residents (?)
and what else?

[RippleJet]

And now, if I understand RippleJet right, it seems I can plop growables using the Extra Cheat plugin without dilapidation, if I have good desirability factors. What is right, maybe there is any misunderstanding here?

First of all, even if the desirability is high, the chances are slim that you will get any occupancy in the residential building when you plop it.
Secondly, if you do manage to get an occupancy in it, the chances are still very slim that it would stay occupied for any longer period.

My experience is that it isn't worth the hassle to try to keep the desirability factors high enough for a building where unemployed people live.
Once you for some reason have managed to get a reduced desirability in the area (increased traffic, pollution, crime, etc.),
the building would become abandoned. And once it has abandoned it will never, ever become reoccupied.

Thus, knowing this, I have always said, and will always continue to say, that plopped residentials do not work.
Most people elsewhere wouldn't understand the more subtle explanation given here.

[Ennedi]

OK Tage, I understand 

So, looking back at this thread, it seems that Andreas' method explained on the first page (grouping growable non-Maxis buildings in different styles) looks the most efficient one. Four building sets in one city isn't bad (I say four in one city, because I have different plugin folders for different cities, not as much as cities - in Shosaloza I will have 4 or 5 plugin folders instead of 16)
And the amount of work... in fact, changing the style in 100 buildings can need the same time as lot editing of one or a few buildings

But I still have a few questions, maybe a little "off-topic" 

1. You said on the first page:

Buildings that are properly modded (with the "X Tool") should all have exactly the same chance of growing.
The variance in the approximation is very wide though, so sometimes it might look as the game is favouring a particular building.

I don't use CAM - I want to have it in the next region, but earlier I want to learn some other things. But as I know, residential buildings were made CAMpatible using the X Tool. Can I use these buildings in non-CAM cities (of course these of them which grow in Maxis stages)? Can it improve the simulation's work and equalize the chance to appear particular buildings? (I think about the situation when I have No Maxis mod installed and use the particular set of buildings)

2. What about making buildings historical and blocking dilapidation? We know conditions in the particular area can change when the city grows. When the simulation "wants" to replace these buildings by others from the next stage, but it's impossible because of making existing ones historical, or when conditions become worse - but we don't see it because of blocking dilapidation - can it affect the simulation and in which way?

[RippleJet]

1. I don't use CAM - I want to have it in the next region, but earlier I want to learn some other things. But as I know, residential buildings were made CAMpatible using the X Tool. Can I use these buildings in non-CAM cities (of course these of them which grow in Maxis stages)? Can it improve the simulation's work and equalize the chance to appear particular buildings? (I think about the situation when I have No Maxis mod installed and use the particular set of buildings)

Yes, on both accounts!

2. What about making buildings historical and blocking dilapidation? We know conditions in the particular area can change when the city grows. When the simulation "wants" to replace these buildings by others from the next stage, but it's impossible because of making existing ones historical, or when conditions become worse - but we don't see it because of blocking dilapidation - can it affect the simulation and in which way?

Making (a few) houses historical wouldn't normally to any significant degree affect the simulation.

Which dilapidation mod are you using?

[bblubb]

So if I have understood everything alright so far, the simulator isn't capable of properly handling C&I plopables (I don't want to talk about residentials cause i have never used them before). Every plopped job screws demand and other simulated values to a certain degree. On top of that plopped industrials don't produce anything (at least no freight trucks are leaving). But what about all of these beautiful rewards that comes with jobs. Most of them only provide a handful of jobs, so is it right to assume that the simulator is able to manage these? Or should I better mod them to pure landmarks if I want to maintain stable parameters for the simulator? When I think about it, I guess it would be ok to leave them with jobs, schools and other public buildings always came with jobs too (or is the disturbance so small that no one ever bothered about it?).

[Ennedi]

Which dilapidation mod are you using?

I'm using AbandonmentModd v1_2 from ST (Plugin_No_Dilapidation + Plugin_180_Year_Abandonment_Modd).

bblubb questions are interesting for me too. Maybe I ask for too much  , but Tage, would you like to say what is your opinion about the most proper and effective way (from the simulation point of view) of using ploppable industrials and commercials?

[RippleJet]

So if I have understood everything alright so far, the simulator isn't capable of properly handling C&I plopables (I don't want to talk about residentials cause i have never used them before). Every plopped job screws demand and other simulated values to a certain degree. On top of that plopped industrials don't produce anything (at least no freight trucks are leaving).

The simulator is fully capable of handling a plopped commercial and even a plopped industrial, if there is a demand for the type of RCI they represent.
The effect in that case is the same as if a similar building would grow, it satisfied a demand for capacity that exists.

Thus, if you want to plop a skyscraper providing 5,000 CO§§§ jobs, make sure you do have a demand for CO§§§ at that level.

But what about all of these beautiful rewards that comes with jobs. Most of them only provide a handful of jobs, so is it right to assume that the simulator is able to manage these? Or should I better mod them to pure landmarks if I want to maintain stable parameters for the simulator? When I think about it, I guess it would be ok to leave them with jobs, schools and other public buildings always came with jobs too (or is the disturbance so small that no one ever bothered about it?).

None of the in-game rewards satisfies demand for any RCI capacity, they provide civic jobs. Civic jobs are handled in a different way.

Each in-game building that provides civic jobs, gives the same amount of amenities as well, or in other words, residential CAP relief.
Thus they allow the same increase in demand for residential capacity as they provide jobs, and won't affect the RCI simulators at all.

[RippleJet]

I'm using AbandonmentModd v1_2 from ST (Plugin_No_Dilapidation + Plugin_180_Year_Abandonment_Modd).

Yes, both the No Abandonment Mod and the No Dilapidation Mod will affect the simulator.
To what degree depends on how your city would develop without the mod(s) installed.

A lot can always upgrade to higher wealth (there is a property to block this, but it has never been changed in a mod).
However, dilapidation and/or abandonment is the only way to allow the wealth of a lot to downgrade to a lower wealth.

If you provide enough low-wealth housing and jobs elsewhere, you can get away with minimum impact on the demand simulators.

[TheTeaCat]

However, dilapidation and/or abandonment is the only way to allow the wealth of a lot to downgrade to a lower wealth.

Does this mean then that the lot will redevelop with a lower stage building on it after it has dilapidated/abandonded?

Fasinating thread and some excellent information gained


TTC

[RippleJet]

Does this mean then that the lot will redevelop with a lower stage building on it after it has dilapidated/abandonded?

No, if a §§§ lot has dilapidated getting §§ occupancy, then the lot can be upgraded to a higher stage §§ lot.

And yes, an abandoned lot is essentially unbuilt, and cen redevelop into stage 1 if needed.

[bblubb]

thank you for your quick reply.

None of the in-game rewards satisfies demand for any RCI capacity, they provide civic jobs. Civic jobs are handled in a different way.

Each in-game building that provides civic jobs, gives the same amount of amenities as well, or in other words, residential CAP relief.
Thus they allow the same increase in demand for residential capacity as they provide jobs, and won't affect the RCI simulators at all.

I didn't know of the existence of these "civic jobs". This thread doesn't stop to get more interesting all the time. I have already learned a lot of new things. Am I safe to assume that the custom made civic lots (if well modeled) work the same way?

The simulator is fully capable of handling a plopped commercial and even a plopped industrial, if there is a demand for the type of RCI they represent. The effect in that case is the same as if a similar building would grow, it satisfied a demand for capacity that exists.

Thus, if you want to plop a skyscraper providing 5,000 CO§§§ jobs, make sure you do have a demand for CO§§§ at that level.

So I simply have to check demand everytime before plopping a commercial or industrial building (as well as any non-civic custom made reward with jobs). I can live with that. The only "unnatural" issue remaining would be that plopped industrials won't produce freight. But fright only creates traffic as far as I know. Or is there any other hidden meaning to it?

[bblubb]

EDITED
well, I just finished writing this when I noticed that this idea has been recently discussed in this thread. So just forget it....
-----



This post has more to do with the original intention of this thread. So I separated it from my last reply.
I usually play with the BSC NoMaxis Mod. But in my last city I wanted to create a small patch of Maxis $-Industries. So I temporarily removed the appropriate file from my plugin folder and immediately after starting my city again, the Maxis Lots started to grow like weeds. When everything had grown as I wanted I saved my city, quited the game and took the removed file back into my plugin folder. I restarted the game and reentered my City. The Maxis building seemed to work fine. They produced freight, and people got there to work. I let the game run for many years. Although I still had a very high I-D demand none of the Maxis lots developed into a higher stage lot. I guess this depends on them now being recognized by the game as Stage 256? I really don't know if detecting stage 256 lots is irritating the simulator in any way, but I've never noticed anything to suspect this.
But to come back to the topic I think that it would be possible to make similar blocker files (changing the growth stage to 256) for different Sets of Lots. For example one for all the mediterranean style lots, one for the SHUR project lots, the BSP.....
This probably has a few advantages over editing or moving the original lots around all the time. First, you just have to do this once for every set you want to use (and eventually prevent from growing). Second, once created these files are very easy to manage. Third, no empty lots in game while trying (and afterwards) to grow from a specific set.
Of course there are also some downsides. This is nothing compared to new tilesets for example. You have to create such a file for every set/lot you want to prevent from growing and you have to restart the game to switch between different sets. On the whole this attempt isn't so much about deciding what to grow but more about what not to grow. But what do you think of the idea? Anything I have overseen?

[RippleJet]

I didn't know of the existence of these "civic jobs". This thread doesn't stop to get more interesting all the time. I have already learned a lot of new things. Am I safe to assume that the custom made civic lots (if well modeled) work the same way?

If they are well modded, yes.
However, there are civic buildings out there that provide civic jobs without providing amenities.
The impact of them is in no way severe though, since residential CAP relief can be provided in many ways (e.g. parks).

So I simply have to check demand everytime before plopping a commercial or industrial building (as well as any non-civic custom made reward with jobs). I can live with that. The only "unnatural" issue remaining would be that plopped industrials won't produce freight. But fright only creates traffic as far as I know. Or is there any other hidden meaning to it?

Yes, there is another meaning with freight.
Each freight trip out of town provides an industrial CAP relief of 20.
However, also in this case can you find other means of providing industrial CAP relief.

[RippleJet]

Although I still had a very high I-D demand none of the Maxis lots developed into a higher stage lot. I guess this depends on them now being recognized by the game as Stage 256? I really don't know if detecting stage 256 lots is irritating the simulator in any way, but I've never noticed anything to suspect this.

Yes, this has been acknowledged, and the BSC No Maxis File mod will be updated.

The upgrade will use another lotconfig property to block them from growing, and leave the growth stage unchanged.
That will allow them to upgrade even if blocked from growing.

[FrankU]

Well after having thought about it, and having found out that my new cities are really overwhelmed by Haarlemmergold's Dutch files (beautiful, but it is just too much!), I am considering to edit my residentials the way Andreas advised me in his first reply. Which means: editing them into the four building styles.
But... How do I do this?
I opened some files in LE prop, but that doesn't work. If I open Ilive's reader, where do I have to look and what entry do I need to edit?

[Xiziz]

FrankU:
I belive you have to use ilives reader to do this, dont think le-prop has the necisary buttons.
The property you want to change is in the "occupant group" part of the exemplar in the *.sc4desc file, its not in the *.sc4lot file by nature(some modders put the sc4 descfile there i belive, or in a dat with the model).
Add, replace or remove so that only the tileset you want is still included, many coustom bats have all four added from the start, then its just to remove the three you dont want(dont touch the other numbers though, there related to how the game sees and grows the building, and what wealth it is)

0x00002000 - Chicago
0x00002001 - New York
0x00002002 - Huston
0x00002003 - Euro

And the obligatory picture to help explain