Making lots CAMpatible and other questions.

[Pompic]

Hello people,

I've read the CAM manual and the OP of all the pinned threads of this forums but I have a couple of questions still remaining unanswered. First of all, are all lots with a growth stage under 8 are CAMpatible by default? In the manual, it says : "Lots with a growth stage available in Vanilla or Rush Hour, but which are still made in accordance with the settings developed for the CAM are called CAMpatible". What exactly are these settings? How do I know if a lot fits in those settings? Are the stage limits specified for the CAM for lots stage 1 to 7 are the same, or close to, those in the unCAM'ed game? If yes, then it'd make all the lots under stage 8 CAMpatible, right? Also, can unCAMpatible stage 8 lots (ie, with a stage limit over the one for a stage 8 CAM lot) still grow in the CAM?

Secondly, do I need the BAT creator permission to make his lots CAMpatible or can I do it freely myself? From what I understand, it doesn't seem overly complex to make lots CAMpatible. Correct if I'm wrong, but the steps would basicly be:
1) Approximate the right capacity number according to the size of the building with the size of comparable default SC4 buildings. (that "X-tool" seems perfect to do that from what I've seen);
2) Change the values of the pollution output, value, water/power consumption, etc. to match the values of comparable SC4 buildings (easy to do with the SC4 tool database and T-Rex's stats and values pack);
3) With the dimensions of the lots and the new capacity number, evaluate the new growth stage and change it in the lot examplar;
4) Add the two right CAM occupant groups to the building examplar;
and voilà! Are there other important steps I'm missing or is it all it takes to make lots CAMpatible? If that's only that, I could make all my plugins CAMpatible myself with no problems.

Finally, I've made a mod for myself which increases (dramatically!) the capacity of all SC4 default CS§§ buildings and also increases a little (like 20-40%) the capacity of stage 1 to 3 CO§§ and CO§§§ default buildings. Could I continue using this mod with the CAM, because besides industries and farms, the CAM doesn't change the capacity of other default buildings, right?

Well, I don't think I have other questions at the moment. Thanks in advance to whoever have the patience to answer all my question!

[RippleJet]

Hello Pompic!

I've read the CAM manual and the OP of all the pinned threads of this forums but I have a couple of questions still remaining unanswered. First of all, are all lots with a growth stage under 8 are CAMpatible by default? In the manual, it says : "Lots with a growth stage available in Vanilla or Rush Hour, but which are still made in accordance with the settings developed for the CAM are called CAMpatible". What exactly are these settings? How do I know if a lot fits in those settings? Are the stage limits specified for the CAM for lots stage 1 to 7 are the same, or close to, those in the unCAM'ed game? If yes, then it'd make all the lots under stage 8 CAMpatible, right? Also, can unCAMpatible stage 8 lots (ie, with a stage limit over the one for a stage 8 CAM lot) still grow in the CAM?

The settings for CAM are those formulas that have been developed for the "X" Tool and are based directly on the settings for all in-game buildings by Maxis. In other words, comparing your own building to other in-game buildings of the same size, and setting the property values according to that, is sufficient to make them CAMpatible.

InCAMpatible (not only stage 8 ) buildings will still grow in the game. I'd recommend to avoid them though, especially if the growth stage has been tweaked. E.g. consider a building that should have been given growth stage 12 (if made CAMpatible), but has been tweaked to grow as stage 6, in order to make it appear earlier and more often. When that building has grown, it will block every further development of that lot till a stage 13 lot would replace it. In order to develop (upgrade) the building being replaced must have:
  - a smaller growth stage than the building replacing it
  - a smaller density (capacity per tile) than the building replacing it

In order not to screw up the simulator it is inevitable that the growth stage matches the capacity density of the lot (as shown in the thread you linked to yourself)
Several older stage 8 commerical offices and residential towers would often end up in a higher growth stage if made CAMpatible. Thus, if you have too many inCAMpatible stage 8 buildings, you will notice a slowdown in the developement when stage 9 and above should be growing.

Secondly, do I need the BAT creator permission to make his lots CAMpatible or can I do it freely myself? From what I understand, it doesn't seem overly complex to make lots CAMpatible. Correct if I'm wrong, but the steps would basicly be:
1) Approximate the right capacity number according to the size of the building with the size of comparable default SC4 buildings. (that "X-tool" seems perfect to do that from what I've seen);
2) Change the values of the pollution output, value, water/power consumption, etc. to match the values of comparable SC4 buildings (easy to do with the SC4 tool database and T-Rex's stats and values pack);
3) With the dimensions of the lots and the new capacity number, evaluate the new growth stage and change it in the lot examplar;
4) Add the two right CAM occupant groups to the building examplar;
and voilà! Are there other important steps I'm missing or is it all it takes to make lots CAMpatible? If that's only that, I could make all my plugins CAMpatible myself with no problems.

Down to here I do not have much to add!
You might want to check "X" Tool: Capacity Calculations and Floorage as well though.

Finally, I've made a mod for myself which increases (dramatically!) the capacity of all SC4 default CS§§ buildings and also increases a little (like 20-40%) the capacity of stage 1 to 3 CO§§ and CO§§§ default buildings. Could I continue using this mod with the CAM, because besides industries and farms, the CAM doesn't change the capacity of other default buildings, right?

Basically, if you change the capacity of buildings, you should also check if the growth stage should remain the same or be increased. Especially if you've increased the capacitites dramatically. If you've done the same (smaller) increase on all stage 1-3 lots of the same type (CO), then your mod shouldn't upset the development simulators too much.

If you change the capacity of all CS buildings (including whatever buildings you've downloaded) with the same percentages, then your mod should work with the CAM. However, since there are now several higher density custom CS buildings available for CAM stages 9-15, I wouldn't increase the capacities of the lower stage buildings though.

If you compare the CAM stage limits to the RH stage limits, you'll notice that you will always have at least 40% stage 1 CS buildings without the CAM, but only 12% with the CAM once your region has grown enough. Thus, with the CAM you won't have the same problems with a huge amount of low stage CS buildings (which I suppose is the reason for your own mod).

[TownMaster2005]

CAM appears to be a brilliant modification to the basic programme.

I have been out of the game for over a year due to work commitments not allowing time to play and before I take the CAM step I have a few questions, some of which I "think  " have been answered, but my brain is just not engaging this morning.

I have "tons" of lots downloaded over the past x years of playing, some own creations, some brilliant (old SG, CSX, BSC, etc) and some not so good but still do the job (no city is ever perfect). It appears that there are a limited number of CAM lots available and those that are, only come from this site and they are labeled "will only grow with CAM in place". By the way, my hat off to all developers on this site you folk really create some masterpieces and I would like to continue using them as I have used them before and still have them all.

My questions are thus;

1 - Can I use my old lots and will they develop? From what I have read, they will but the "purpose of the CAM is to even out growth more in cities so that skyscrapers don't appear quite so soon in development", when measured against what? And which city in the world is balanced anyway as most that I have lived in have a rather big conglomeration of building styles, volumes, etc. Sure SC does not quite emulate real life and the Sims have more say than we do about where they work and live, but in general it works.

2 - Without CAM I am assuming that lots so mentioned will not grow without CAM installed? or is there a way to un-CAM them?

3 - Converting lots to be CAMpatible appears to be a major (almost impossible) task without the much discussed X-Tool and this would mean less play time which is surely not the reason I bought the game.

As I have said earlier I have the greatest respect for the developers on this site and would love to use the new stuff, but I want to create a region which is as diverse in nature as it is in building style and operation and I get this distinct feeling that with this mod, one is going to end up with a very uniform looking region if onegoes the CAM route, as the variety is just not there - 200 lots don't make a city. Or am I wrong on this one?

I must add that previously I used only NAM and a slope mod (cannot remember which one) as I want to work to keep my region developing, that is the fun in the game.

Still not convinced this is the route to follow and thanks in advance to those that answer my questions. Please keep it simple so that this simple brain can comprehend. Take care all of you out there.

[xxdita]

CAM works with all of the existing Maxis buildings as well, updated to grow in more appropriate stages. My best advice would be to try it out, in a new region, with all of your other plugins safely moved to another folder for the time being.
As most of the lots available on the LEX are CAMpatible, there are more than 200 to choose from, though many have been conveniently packaged together, to help ease the transition. Not sure about the exact count, but I think with all of his packages available, there are probably more than 200 SimGoober lots that have been updated on the LEX.
The main thing is watching out for the skyscrapers that haven't been updated yet, though a lot of NDEX buildings have brand new CAMelots available.

If you have any problems along the way, someone's almost always around to give you a hand, so don't hesitate to ask.

[jmyers2043]

even out growth more in cities so that skyscrapers don't appear quite so soon in development", when measured against what?

It evens out the development against other buidlings of similar volume and lot size. Rush Hour has 8 commercial growth stages. Generlly speaking a Maxis small shop grows at stage 1 and a 25 story skyscrapper grows at stage 8. Now enter the bat tool. SimCity fans downloded it and went to town making 65 story skyscrappers. These buidings were all set to grow at the highest growth stage allowed at that time which was stage 8. Enter the CAM. There are now 7 more stages. So now we can grow, as an example, the 100 story World Trade Center, at stage 15. Your city will grow taller in a more linear fashion. The answer to your comment 'appear quite so soon' is that the tallest of the tall take longer. It does change the way the game is played a bit.

Without CAM I am assuming that lots so mentioned will not grow without CAM installed? or is there a way to un-CAM them

A lot that is specifically designted as a CAMeLOT will in all likelyhood not grow if you do not have the CAM mod installed. As far as un-CAMing? The BSC is not known for making extremely tall buildings. Most likely scenario is that the CAM building was probably a pre-CAM Rush Hour building that can be found somewhere else. What about recent post CAM releases? In my case, some recent industrial buidlings I made have CAM and Rush Hour installers. The player can choose.

You can approach the game the was I did. I have the CAM. I moved my big skyscrappers to another spot. I downloaded the industrial CAM lots. Then played the game normally. When I saw my first commercial stage 8's grow I went out and gathered up some stage 9 and 10's. Saw them grow and then began a quest for stage 11 and 12's. And so on. It seemed a less daunting task when I broke it up into small chores.

[RippleJet]

As I have said earlier I have the greatest respect for the developers on this site and would love to use the new stuff, but I want to create a region which is as diverse in nature as it is in building style and operation and I get this distinct feeling that with this mod, one is going to end up with a very uniform looking region if onegoes the CAM route, as the variety is just not there - 200 lots don't make a city. Or am I wrong on this one?

Your region would certainly be more diverse with the CAM.
First of all, both with and without the CAM, most of your buildings would be stage 1-7, and virtually all existing stage 1-7 commercial and residential buildings can be used with CAM. Only those that have had their growth stages tampered with are a no-no. And this applies especially to high-rise buildings.

Like me, I suppose you have a wide variety of NDEX towers that you have downloaded over the years. But, how many of them have you actually seen growing in the game? Even if most downloaded buildings have been stage 8, the variety of stage 8 buildings seen in the game hasn't really increased. With these towers redistributed into growth stages 8-15, you will get a higher variety of them.

Before seeing any skyscrapers develop though, you would have a lot more sprawling suburbs with the CAM than otherwise.
Thus, you will get a good chance to see more of your low-rise custom buildings grow.

Those 200 lots that are in the CAM starter packs are exclusively old stage 8 skyscrapers and industrials that have been remodded to fit into the upper CAM stages (9-15 of R and C, 4-10 of I). In addition to these you can and should still have a vaste number of both existing (e.g GasCooker's) and newly remodded (e.g. SimGoober's) stage 1-7 custom buildings.

[TownMaster2005]

Hi Folks

Thanks for coming back to me so quickly. From the replies I really cannot gauge whether there is a real gain from loading CAM except to try and push the boundaries of the game. I see no reason why I should wait to stage 15 to grow tall buidings when they can be available a lot earlier. This I think is going to take far to long and by the time I get there I will be utterly bored with the city and the region. I enjoy the landscaping part of creating "my masterpiece" and then letting the simulator develop the rest and by the time I get to 100 years I am ready to bin it and move onto the next new region, not then be stuck in stage 10 and have to wait for more development. Large city populations over 500,000 are a nightmare by my experience and become almost uncontrollable and you spend your life demolishing to create transport systems to get the sims around, which is not really true to life anyway. Try and build a new road through London, Paris or any of the old world cities and it is impossible. Everything goes underground and that simulation is not available yet, I think (I have not tried the new NAM).

Having spent the whole day looking around LEX I notice that many of the developers have produced both; just wondering why?

The reply from RippleJet has me thinking that maybe I should give it a go on a small region, which is not what I wanted to do as I was looking to develop the Chetwood Region found here, as I love water and the potential for having some lovely harbour and waterfront developments I just cannot resist.

So maybe it must be an easier region to try CAM and then see what happens and yes I have all the old NDEX, CARCH, COBB, HKBT, Nexis, SimGoober, ITS and loads from the Japanese and other sites amounting to over 500 towers and most of them I did see develop, albeit rather late in the city's life.

Good luck and thanks. Have fun in whatever you do as life is to short, too not do it now.

[Pompic]

Thanks for the reply RippletJet.

So as I understand it, the main consequence of having an unCAMpatible lot with a wrong growth stage is that once it grows, it cannot be redevelopped until much more later than normally? It won't like screw all the region and the demand or stuff like this. I mean the game will still be playable even if there are uncompatible lots?

Also, on an unrelated note, I'm in the long process of installing all the CAM starter packs and realised all those megapacks on the LEX aren't that much "mega". Several packs like those for ks_JPN and bixel contain only 3-4 model files by pack or less. Why aren't you merging all those packs into a real "megapack" so that it'll only be one pack for ks_JPN, on pack for bixel, etc? I know it was the practice on the STEX because of the 10mb limit, but since you guys aren't uploading to the STEX anymore, I don't see where would be the problem to have just one massive file instead or 10 smaller ones. If we had to download just like 2 packs out of the 10 then I'd understand, but I had to download them all to install just the R and CO CAM starter packs so I don't really see an advantage in that. It's just a minor annoyance but you should think about it, it'd make the process of installing all those CAM lots less painful.

I've noticed at least at two occasions that a model file was not listed in the readme of a CAM pack. jestar's Wisconsin Gas building and eburess' IJL Financial Center models weren't listed in the "Essentials" part of the readme, yet the lot files were present in the pack. Also, I've noticed one time that a file was named "R$10_3x3_ Cobb Towers_43f7ffea.SC4Lot" and the readme directed to the pack containing the Cobb Tower, but when I checked the file with the Reader, it was in fact the Cobb Veinte Building, which is another building. There was one tower that had like two versions of the same model but with different windows colors and it was the other version that was used instead of the one stated in the readme. I don't remember the name of this building however.

Is it worth it to report any other oddities if I encounter others while installing the other CAM packs?

[BarbyW]

Thanks for the reports, Pompic. As  far as the packs are concerned we decided not to make them real MEGA packs as there are still a lot of people on dial-up connections. You can choose to remove lots from any of the sets that you don't want to bother getting the models. With regard to the eburess IJL Center I forgot why that happened as these sets of lots were made a long time ago.
Please report any other oddities but you may find by checking through the various CAM threads that they have already been reported and dealt with.

[fantnet]

I have some residential lots that are not CAMpatiable. I want to them in my cities, IT from Dusktroopers lofts lots and some others. Can I make the work with cam without the X-tool which at this point wont come out? By Changing the capicity and growth stage? will this miss the simulation?

[RippleJet]

I have some residential lots that are not CAMpatiable. I want to them in my cities, IT from Dusktroopers lofts lots and some others. Can I make the work with cam without the X-tool which at this point wont come out? By Changing the capicity and growth stage? will this miss the simulation?

If you set the growth stage in accordance with the Stage vs. Size your lots will at least grow in the correct stage.

If you feel the capacity of the buildings is way off, you might want to check the capacity in accordance with "X" Tool: Capacity Calculations and Floorage

Those two properties (capacity and growth stage) are the two most important ones for the development simulators.
If you get them correct, and can live with pollution generation and building values that might be off the scale, you'll be fine!

[fantnet]

RippleJet -

How do you make those calulations without the X-tool?

[RippleJet]

How do you make those calulations without the X-tool?

The width, height and depth (in that order) of the LOD box can be read from the Occupant Size property!

Multiply that volume (width×depth×height) with the filling degree. See this post for an explaination.

Divide that volume by 6 to get the floorage.
Then divide that floorage with the floorage requirement per person to get the total occupancy.