What causes Prop Pox (and how to avoid it)

[Kitsune]

Why is it all the peg links leads to the prop pox thread? I didnt think MTP lead to prop pox.

[Korot]

They don't cause Prop Pox, it was establisht  that it was caused by another of his files. However to warn people for it, any form of PeG's name leads to the page. PeGaSuS himself also has an opinion about why, one which I shall not post here.

[owlsinger]

(Sigh) I have so much to learn! 

However, I am determined to find out what in my folders caused this problem for me, so I will do the best I can, and learn it along the way. I have one question........when testing with the vanilla city, should I have all the Maxis updates and landmarks installed? It seems that has already been shown to be safe, and I would need those when I add custom prop packs to the plugins to test.

Kendra

[BarbyW]

Yes you should have as much Maxis content as you wish plus as many custom prop/resource packs as you had. Try to leave out lots especially growables as they may skew results. We are trying to identify any props so custom lots may cloud the issue.

[Kitsune]

How immature 

[wouanagaine]

I hope that the Maxis update and Maxis landmark are not causing any problem

Kendra, can you please give us the list of plugins you're using so we can have a look at them

To do that, follow the below process:
open a command line
navigate to your My documents\Simcity 4\Plugins folder using cd
( if you're on XP this will be cd \Documents and settings\[your account name]\My documents\Simcity 4\Plugins, on Vista it will be cd \Users\[your account name]\My documents\Simcity 4\Plugins )
If you use datpacker, we need to original folders, not the compressed one
then at prompt type dir *.* /s /b > pluginslist.txt
this will create a file called pluginslist.txt which you can attach ( after zipping it ) here

[bap]

However, I am determined to find out what in my folders caused this problem for me, so I will do the best I can, and learn it along the way. I have one question........when testing with the vanilla city, should I have all the Maxis updates and landmarks installed? It seems that has already been shown to be safe, and I would need those when I add custom prop packs to the plugins to test.

Kendra, the only (downloadable) Maxis landmarks you need to have installed in order to be able to play Riquelandia without getting a brown box is the Plugin_002_TheLivingMall. There are a few other Maxis landmarks installed in the city, but those already come with the vanilla distribution. EP1 and BAT updates cause no Prop Pox. So, it doesn't matter if you have them installed or not. I can also say that

Plugin_005_EstadioSeul.dat
Plugin_006_GlobeArena.dat
Plugin_007_AirForceBase.dat
Plugin_00D_Parthenon.dat
Plugin_00E_SchlossSchoenbrun.dat
Plugin_017_SanFranCityHall.dat
Plugin_030_TaipeiArtMuseum.dat
Plugin_031_AdlerPlanetarium.dat

also do not cause Prop Pox. They were included in my plugins for the tests where the city does not show Prop Pox.
I cannot say anything about other Maxis plugins as they were not tested. But it is probably safe to play with the rest of them, as one does not expect Maxis to mod their our props (without chaging their IIDs).

It is great to know you are willing to check what in your folder causes Prop Pox. As Barby says, this may be a tedious and lengthy process. May I suggest you first make a control experiment, temporarily removing every single custom content (lots, bats, props and modds) from your plugins folders, and developing Riquelandia until it goes beyond 25 Mb (prop subfile larger than 16 Mb) in order to be sure that it does not get Prop Pox. Then, when you get Prop Pox in a future test from the original Riquelandia city you will be sure that the culprit is something you have put back in your plugins folders. If you are going for the binary search procedure, please have in mind that the idea is progressively eliminating the prop packages that do not cause Prop Pox, while narrowing down the search.

Good luck with your tests.
Bap

[LE0]

Are the NAm little stretlights prop pox? Before my comp broke I remember they were all over the place

[BarbyW]

No,LE0, I don't think the NAM streetlights  will cause prop pox.

[bap]

Are the NAm little stretlights prop pox? Before my comp broke I remember they were all over the place

No. After removing the affected props in the BDK resource pack I tested again with all custom content I have in my plugins folder and got no Prop Pox (see here). Therefore, nothing I have left there causes Prop Pox. This includes NAM, SAM and RHW (versions of mid-2008).

[deathtopumpkins]

Actually it wasn't caused by ANY of P.e.g's files, as there were confirmed (err as best as they can be confirmed) cases of the prop pox long before P.e.g even started making content. I do think that is a rather ...inappropriate use of the forum's censor thing, but that is left up to the site staff and their opinions.

[SimGoober]

Not quite correct.  There are some of that persons files which DO cause prop pox, however they are not the sole source.  There are others.  My understanding is that further research is being conducted by several sources, and more information will be made public in a while.

[BarbyW]

I think the time has come to make some statements about this situation and where we are with investigating it.
1. After extensive and meticulous research, bap identified that four props in one one particular file had caused his city to get the Prop Pox.
2. This was taken seriously by some of the community but treated with disdain by others.
3. BSC tried to identify if any props modified by any of them were of the same type as those identified. One set were found as having been modified without a change of IID from Maxis. These were corrected and an update posted to the LEX.
4. bap provided 3 files for investigation. These have been tested by a number of people and his findings have been corroborated.
5. Testing also continued to see if the individual props could be identified. Two of the four were found to cause PP. The other two were cleared.
6. Wounanagaine made a tool to analyse the savegame. This has been refined and he has shown screen shots from it. With this our number crunchers have been analysing the savegames and much has been done in the way of decoding - something that was discontinued in 2004 by the early modders like Karybdis.
7. I tested with a full set of BSC Props and textures. No PP was caused.
8. I have been testing again with a full set of PEGProd files. I have not yet reached the critical mass point but will soon and will report here with the results.
9. owlsinger is also testing and will report back with her results when she has them.

At this stage of research there is only one certainty - two Maxis props that have been modded without changing the IIDs have been identified as causing PP. This is not to say that there are no others and at this stage no one can satisfactorily explain why these two in particular cause the problem. The work being done behind the scenes is tedious and lengthy and unless you have actually had a problem with PP there is no need to worry.

If you have had a problem, then posting your poxed city to a file sharing site like fileden so we can look at it would be helpful as that can be added to the cities being analysed. This would help to identify any problem props so they can be cross checked with further testing.

Although it has been treated as a joke by some, for the people whose carefully crafted cities have been poxed it is not at all. It needs the maximum amount of investigation so if you can help by testing, please do. If you have a poxed city, post it somewhere that we can collect it for analysis.

[snorrelli]

Thanks to all for this meticulous research. I think I still have at least two poxed savegame files that I will post. I may also have pre-pox and post-pox versions. Does it matter which I upload or would both be helpful? Since I understand the pox exists in the save file, even if it hasn't visually appeared yet, maybe it doesn't matter?

[wouanagaine]

Snorelli, please upload the pre and post files, as we can totally explore the prop pox free version, but not the prop poxed one ( as SC4 ). The prop poxed one can be cheated to appears correct only to my tool, but not to SC4 because SC4 is doing savegame validation upon loading and we can't validate a modified savegame by hand. Also the more I have prop poxed cities, the more my tool can be 'immune' ( ie not crashing ) to different kind of invalid data in savegame ( the effect of prop pox )

Edit
Please do also the same process I asked Kendra, ie if you can provide us with the list of plugins you have. As you are one of the earliest member who suffer the prop pox and as it strikes you before the already identified props were release, it will certainly help us to narrow our search for the others ones

[Lord_Morpheus]

Hey there,
I made some prop pox testing too. I was able to produce and reproduce the Prop Pox. I tested all situations several times.
Test environment:
- a big city map with a 609xxxx byte (5,8MByte) big network file
- 2,25Gbyte big plugin folder
- nearly all downloads from http://www.simcityplaza.de/
- many downloads from the lex and the plex
- many downloads from stex
- some downloads from japanese batters (somy as example)
- some downloads from http://www.simcitypolska.pl

- OWW2 Set within plugin folder
or
- no OWW2 Set within plugin folder

Test Results:
1. Without the OWW2 Set and it's essentials I wasn't able to produce the prop pox. No matter what I do.

Everything that follows now only occured with the OWW2 and it's essentials in my plugin folder.

2. If the game changes the memory management to the "big" version (network file above 6 MByte) there is a high chance (aprox 33%) this will lead to prop pox. However it's possible that the management changes and no prop pox will appear. In fact this happens more often.

3. If the "big" memory management is active and you bulldoze enough buildings the game will change back to the "small" memory management. And this will always (!) lead to prop pox!

4. Once I installed this beach set (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/stexdetails.cfm?id=2045). I don't use it anymore so I deleted it from my plugin folder long time ago. However some lots were still present in my test city. This set is using maxis beach props. I want to know what happens when I bulldoze the lots and this leads to prop pox most time (aprox 75%).
I found out that there is another "version" of prop pox related to this. You bulldoze the lots and save the city. You load the city and everything seems to be fine. But if you save and load a second time the prop pox is there even if you changed nothing at all. This "version" of prop pox only seems to appear when you bulldoze lots with affected props that are already deleted from the plugin folder.

5. The size of the savegame can determine prop pox. Most time the file shrinks about a few hundred Kbyte. But this don't happens always. Sometimes there will be no change in size or the file gets even bigger but the prop pox strikes anyway. And sometimes the file shrinks and there is no prop pox.

6. There seems to be no way to save a poxed city. If you get the pox your city seems to be lost forever. Only solution is a clean BACKUP!

My résumé: There are many things which can lead to the pox, but don't have to. Just a few things I know for sure: Without the OWW2 Set and Essentials I wasn't able to produce prop pox. If the "big" memory management active and you will bulldoze enough buildings so that the "small" memory management will be reactivated you will get prop pox. Only with OWW2 Set and Essentials in the Plugin Folder of course. So I think the whole prop pox problem is indeed prop ID related. But as I stated I have thousands plugins from various sites in my plugin folder and only one is causing the pox. So make backups of your cities and don't panic

Something I have to add: I know there was lot of chit chat. I don't want to blame anyone because no modder could know this. But I want this to be fixed because I wish nobody to have a poxed city! Well and I want to use the OWW2 again^^

[wouanagaine]

Thanks a lot for the detailled analysis Lord_Morpheus

I have a hard time figuring out what you call "Big memory managment", can you explain it deeper please ?

As for not beeing able to reproduce the prop pox 100%, I have to make more tests, but I think that there is a critical mass for the prop pox to appears, if you don't save often ( or more exactly if you let the city grows for a long period without saving) so that the resulting subfile will be way bigger than 16Mb, then chance are that your city won't be prop poxed.

And as for your addition, we never blame anyone because of the modding, we only blame people that don't want to fix their stuffs. Also on the first page of this thread, Bap explain how to fix the props yourself. However and you may have notice that yourself during your tests, if a city has been built when the non fixed props was present on your folder, and one lot exists with that prop in the city, fixing the prop will not guarantee you to be prop pox free.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and findings, the better we understand how prop pox happen, the better chance are we can avoid it

[Diggis]

Steph, I believe the 'big memory managment' Lord Morpheous is refering to is when the prop subfile changes from 6mb to 16mb.

[Nardo69]

Diggis is right - Lord_Morpheus uses the term Big Memory Management for the size of the subfile after the big increase at 6 mb (I do know as he first posted over at the German SimForum and Iasked him to post here, too)

[tahill79]

1st,  can i get a DL link to one of these cities.  i perfer the one that everyone seems to be working on most.

2nd,  ive never had this in any of my cities.  not saying it dont exist.  ive seen the pix that have been posted here.  also at one point i had a 4 gig plugin folder.  has the size of a plugin folder been discussed? 

with all the custome comment from all the fan sites you would think things would get a little crowded in there.

3rd,  who came up with the term Prop Pox?  wth does it mean?

4th,  said developer never said he wouldnt change his files.  show me 100% proof then ill make the changes.  but he has also requested one of these cities also and to my knowledge never got one.