I have been playing simcity4 with rush hour expansion for a few years, and never had a problem with residents moving in. I installed cam a week ago, and now I have VERY slow residential growth. As a comparison, before the cam modd I could get my residential population up past 12000-15000 in roughly 10-15 yrs. But with cam, after 10 yrs I might have 3500-5000. What gives? I have ind, ag, and comm growth through the roof, but hardly any residents. I've got schools, a fire dept, even tried putting in a hospiyol with no effect. I do have my city connected to others in the region, got plenty of water and power. An I doing something wrong, or being impatient? Please help...I like the idea of large city populations and want to play the sim with cam. I just don't know how to have residential growth equal to ind and comm groth. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks...
Residential growth may be hampered especially if you have lots of eternal commuters. Read the manual about them.
I would also like to see the report from the query of the Census Repository Facility, Version 2 (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=41&threadid=84816&enterthread=y).
Census repository? How is this report generated in the game, and / or what do I need to do to get it? I know I sound like a novice but I'm not. I've been with simcity since the beginning years ago. I have read the section on eternal commuters, and while I await your reply I will check how my cities are situated with each other and read this section again. Thanks for your help...
Follow the link I provided to my post at ST and read it thoroughly.
Then download RalphaelNinja's version of the Census Repository, but install only the SC4Model file.
Then download and install my version 2 of the Census Repository which is attached to the end of the above post.
Get into your city and plop the Census Repository Facility which will appear near the top of the rewards manu.
Query it (click on it) and you'll get the report which you need to take a snapshot of and show us here.
I installed the census report as you suggested, and although I'm still trying to understand what it's telling me, I do see that I have a lot of negative residential growth. I don't remember if I said I was playing on an established region, not a new one. I read the CAM tutorial section on eternal commuters, and when I looked at my region I had highways connecting to other cities at shared corners. So, I decided to start over with a new region, and will run one city until I get the hang of it. As for my current region, I like the terraforming I've done with the older cities, so when I'm ready for more cities I'll obliterate the ones I like and import them into the new region. Hopefully I'll get the cam to work for me taking these steps. Thanks so much for your help, and feel free to offer me any advice which may help!!
Hey, I had that same problem. I read somewhere on the threads that it could be a glitch to existing regions when installing the CAM. I started a new region and everything is working perfect.
After hours of experimenting and adjusting / changing things in my exsisting region, I finally resorted to starting a new region. Cam works perfectly with it! I thing
k an amendmant is needed in the Cam instructions which staes that while Cam will work with an exsisting region, the amount of work and changes which must be made are not worth it. It's easier to start a new region, go to the "old" region, obliterate the city or cities which have terraforming you like, and import the black cities into the new region. I did that, and after experimenting Cam works GREAT! Thanks to all who offered assistance and advice on this. Regards...
Quote from: dslmagic on September 27, 2007, 05:47:58 AM
I think an amendmant is needed in the Cam instructions which staes that while Cam will work with an exsisting region, the amount of work and changes which must be made are not worth it. It's easier to start a new region, go to the "old" region, obliterate the city or cities which have terraforming you like, and import the black cities into the new region. I did that, and after experimenting Cam works GREAT!
That's what is recommended in the manual. :thumbsup:
Second paragraph:
Quote from: CAM Manual
For best gaming experience, it is recommended to install the Colossus Addon Mod before starting a new region.
:D
Maybe you should have called it a README Manual, or just README instead of Manual... but then again, the word README never really inspired anyone to actually READ it either. ::)
In future I think it should be called something like 'Free Porn Links.' $%Grinno$% Maybe then someone will look at it. :P
Quote from: M4346 on September 27, 2007, 06:54:15 AM
In future I think it should be called something like 'Free Porn Links.' $%Grinno$% Maybe then someone will look at it. :P
Those are in the appendices! :D
Then it should be "Manual with Free Porn Links" $%Grinno$%
Now, now you guys. Someone might get offended... ?$%kar&%h and bring out the whip. But until Barby gets here, do tell more %confuso
:D
Whip? No BDSM meetings in the public threads. :P
Okay, okay. Enough... ;D
So getting stuck at the 5000 mark is normal with CAM?.
No what hampers growth is Eternal Commuters I believe
You could really do with reading the thread through more thoroughly
Joe
So then you shouldn't have connections to your neighbors is what your say for us CAM users?.
Oh Joe you need a chill pill. :P
Quote from: Bluebeard on September 27, 2007, 09:29:32 AM
So then you shouldn't have connections to your neighbors is what your say for us CAM users?.
Neighbour connections are actually essential. :thumbsup:
Since the
Stage vs. Size thresholds (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1177.0) are based on regional capacities, your development will definitely come to a halt if you do not have neighbours connected.
On the other hand, be sure not to enable the loops for eternal commuters! $%Grinno$%
Thanx RJ but you lost me went you came to the "Loop" thing.So is there a "Proper" way to connect to a neighbor when using CAM?.Thanx
Read the section in the manual concerning Eternal Commuters. ;)
Barby has arrived so you can stop all the porn NOW %%Order?/ I've lost my whip somewhere at Peg's.
Thanx RJ I found the "Read Me" and the section EC.So my personal thought after reading this is well a load of cow dung.
I appreciate the hard the work that went into CAM but it has a pain the butt game even worse not better given the EC problem.
So I have to either deal with small population problems or find every dang CAM file I have downloaded and remove it.There was some nice CAM lots and it's a shame they are now useless do to the EC problem.
I have nobody to blame but myself should read the fine print next time. &mmm
There's also an old thread at ST covering the same issue: Commuters vs. Jobs (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=75769)
You might find some helpful layouts of neighbour connections there as well. ;)
You draw a straight line and your there it doesn't take a college education to draw from point A to point B.
I feel that more testing on CAM should have been done before releasing it.If you knew about the Commuter problem then why release it or are you a EA employee?. &mmm
Quote from: Bluebeard on September 27, 2007, 10:56:35 AM
You draw a straight line and your there it doesn't take a college education to draw from point A to point B.
I feel that more testing on CAM should have been done before releasing it.If you knew about the Commuter problem then why release it or are you a EA employee?. &mmm
Why not release it?
There are many people out there that are enjoying the CAM as it is. There are limits to the game and unfortunately even the best of modders like RippleJet cannot work around them. It is something that can be advertable, if you follow a rule or two and be careful.
Did you ever use the GLR before draggable? If so, then you are being a hypocrite. There was a fatal flaw in GLR that caused Crash to Desktop. Even though this flaw was known alot of people still used it and enjoyed it.
The problem with Eternal Commuters (or Commute Circles) has always been there (as you can see from the thread at ST I linked you to).
It's a problem you cannot correct, only avoid.
It's probably one of the main reasons why development becomes more and more difficult, even without the CAM.
With the CAM, you only experience it more severely when the demand should be higher, but is cut off.
Luckily it is rather simply to avoid getting those eternal commuters. :thumbsup:
Don't build neighbour connectors close to the corners of your cities.
Ok stay away from corner but is the middle safe?.
JP I have used GLR even with the crash to desktop but I learned to save very often thus when the crash happens it no big deal anymore.
Well until I can afford and find a game to replace SC I'll just deal with the CAM issues instead of getting a headache by removing and searching for CAM stuff in my folders.Thanx for the help and next time I'll look before I leap. ;)
version 2 of the Census Repository < --
i found the first version,but not the second version of it.
were can i download it
so i can show a problem i have with $$$ residential growth.
It is attached to that first post in the thread at Simtropolis (which currently is offline though):
http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=41&threadid=84816&enterthread=y
When ST is back online, look at the bottom of that post and you'll find the attachment.
Thank you very much ;D
I got it today ;D
hey... dont wanna bother you but i've got the same problem with R$$ :P
i started a new region and watched out for the commuting thingy too. so this is a new city with a straight line-connection to the capital.
so the demand stays at -4700 etc. the demand of commercial and HT is huge and the whole city is flooded with skyscrapers and I-HT lvl 10 farm-cubes xD
i dont want to change taxes because the demand of $ and $$$ are so high and i dont want to PRESS more $$ in my city by lowering taxes.
i just want the demand getting higher but... dunno... there are thousands of unoccupied jobs in this city. also there isnt even ONE $$ residential building (the whole city is low density)
but there are a lot of $$$ buildings and the demand is uber too...
just have a look at this
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg220.imageshack.us%2Fimg220%2F6662%2F57343348se1.jpg&hash=6fb72c743e1bfdc254170589bb625cbfca244c75)
all taxes are standard and the capital for example has a huge $$ demand but no $ or $$$ demand.
IMHO weird...
Your region is fairly developed already, so it may be that you already have an overflow of R$$ Sims living in other cities, and need the R$ and R$$$ to balance things out. Check out any cities connecting to this one, especially the larger ones, to see whats going on with them, and your region overall.
2 citys away theres the capital... it has a huge $$ demand but no $ and $$$ in residential...
so you say if i fulfill the need of poor and rich res there'd be a new demand of medium? or is this based on the number of jobs...
this region confuzzles me a little bit as the capital has over 1 mio free jobs taking influence on demands. mostly CO $$$ everywhere... the demand is weird in every city
Quote from: Mercurio on June 04, 2008, 08:30:26 AM
so you say if i fulfill the need of poor and rich res there'd be a new demand of medium? or is this based on the number of jobs...
Demand and supply is always region-wide.
If you fulfil the region's demand for e.g. R§§ in one city, there will be no demand for R§§ elsewhere.
Through taxation it is possible to have cities with only R§, cities with only R§§ and cities with only R§§§,
as long as the total demand for R§/R§§/R§§§ is fulfilled in the whole region.
The demand for residential §/§§/§§§ is based on the
Census Drives (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0) (Demand of Workforce).
Quote from: Mercurio on June 04, 2008, 08:30:26 AM
this region confuzzles me a little bit as the capital has over 1 mio free jobs taking influence on demands. mostly CO $$$ everywhere... the demand is weird in every city
If you have specialised cities, with offices in your downtown, and people living in suburbs,
you need to make sure you've got good commute alternatives for your workforce.
E.g. the city above has 174,298 vacant jobs, but nobody commuting into it.
Are there enough roads / mass transportations coming to this city from neighbouring residential cities?
What "
confuzzles" me the most about your city above is the huge projected regional workforce demand. &Thk/(
Even with CAM's doubling of the regional residential capacity and workforce,
the projected demand for workforce should still be roughly 50% of the projected residential demand.
so the cities are straight-line-connected to the capital which is the biggest city in the region atm. there are enough ways for commuters too (subway and highway connection that is being used relatively good) and i always try to get the demand on a balanced level by keeping res-taxes at start settings.
and yeah the workforce thing is given by the huge CO$$$ demand in EVERY city i guess... i don't know why but even with taxes at 15% the CO$$$ demand is at max. they just wont stop growing.
capital has 2 mio C jobs but only 1 mio residentials for example and the demand of offices is still huge :-[
edit:
in some cities (especially the small ones) there is absolutely no commuting because of the HUGE amount of jobs offered in the own city. as i build residential zones in the center of cities to prevent heavy commuting madness
Quote from: Mercurio on June 04, 2008, 10:13:10 AM
and yeah the workforce thing is given by the huge CO$$$ demand in EVERY city i guess... i don't know why but even with taxes at 15% the CO$$$ demand is at max. they just wont stop growing.
I don't suppose you're using any Super or Radical Demand Ordinance to increase CO§§§ demand?
You might also have custom buildings modded to increase CO§§§ demand.
The best known such a building is probably Colyn's Raka GSM Cell Tower, which grows with a loud Meow... ::)
i have also aan resident problem but with $$$ resident
2 new build city don't want $$$ residents
the are plenty of high tech jobs in neigborghgood city,and transportmap is green in evey city.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Fcensusrepositoryfacilityrny11.jpg&hash=adec60644bb61ac3dd33c81268c1790559b6844c)
is first problem city
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Fcensusrepositoryfacilityrny12.jpg&hash=5c63813e9bd354a4cd5953964ce9d16b1e024e94)
is my second problem city
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Fcensusrepositoryfacilityrny07.jpg&hash=1c4cd377b92a6e1e7fb206ac042d32762a5cdc35)
city 7 is my industry-city its huge with plenty of jobs ,there is metro an highway and railroad to al off my city's
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Fcensusrepositoryfacilityrny06.jpg&hash=13258e88977c3143de421e6b15a9032b6a2a347f)
6 is my capital city,there is demand of $,$$,$$$ residential.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Fregiomap.jpg&hash=142e357615b2f9792c52a890e53c731de0182a1d)
this is my regiomap
i hope you can tell me what i have to do ,to solute my problem
thanx :)
@ ripple
i have no buildings modding anything. i made a completely new plugins folder and i only have CAM and the NAM basic traffic thingy installed.
there is just nothing i can do to lower CO$$$ demand. as i said taxes at max wont stop CO$$$ growing...
@ anakin
dont want to say sth wrong but did you check the attractivity in the city with $$$ demand? appears that commercial buildings create pollution without getting visited and (i tried and it is weird) one can heavily increase commercial zone attractivity by adding schools and hospitals ???
I really don't think there is a problem in your region,
Anakin_5_! ::)
I can't see the stats from all your cities, but summing up those you've showed gives the following total Census Drives:
R§ Drives = 414,930 + 33,285 + 331,251 + 770,276 = 1,549,742
R§§ Drives = 391,596 + 41,419 + 984,112 + 1,126,496 = 2,543,623
R§§§ Drives = 80,064 + 8,823 + 121,300 + 246,680 = 456,867
The Census Drives are the demand for workforce from your workplaces.
These four cities have the following residential capacities:
R§ Capacity = 149,391 + 5,867 + 1,082 + 367,626 = 523,966
R§§ Capacity = 68,926 + 19,844 + 0 + 481,419 = 570,189
R§§§ Capacity = 0 + 0 + 0 + 187,895 = 187,895
These capacities fulfil your workforce demand accordingly:
R§ = 523,966 / 1,549,742 = 33,8%
R§§ = 570,189 / 2,543,623 = 22,4%
R§§§ = 187,895 / 456,867 = 41,1%
Now, since I can't see all your cities, this is not the complete thruth.
However, based on these numbers your region seems to have the largest need for R§§, then R§ and the least need for R§§§.
Quote from: Mercurio on June 04, 2008, 11:02:26 AM
i have no buildings modding anything. i made a completely new plugins folder and i only have CAM and the NAM basic traffic thingy installed.
there is just nothing i can do to lower CO$$$ demand. as i said taxes at max wont stop CO$$$ growing...
There's got to be something increasing CO§§§ demand, if a tax rate of 20% won't get the demand down... &Thk/(
Did you play this region from scratch, or did you continue from an old pre-CAM region?
as i already said this is a completely new region... also i tried to avoid any eternal commuters...
How many cities are there in your region?
Would it be too much to take a Census report from each of them and post them here?
http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/Anakin6/Simcity4/
here are al my cities reports
there 11 city's
in city 9 is nothing builded right know
Hehe, I was asking
Mercurio for those Census reports, but this is good as well. :thumbsup:
Now we can see for sure that your region above all demands more R§§, but not so much R§§§:
| R§: | Capacity 863,920 | / | Capacity Needed 2,252,019 | = | 38,4% |
| R§§: | Capacity 949,437 | / | Capacity Needed 3,445,922 | = | 27,6% |
| R§§§: | Capacity 296,724 | / | Capacity Needed 641,060 | = | 46,3% |
Your R§§§ demand will rise again later on, but you need to provide more R§§ housing first.
Quote from: Anakin_5_ on June 04, 2008, 10:42:37 AM
the are plenty of high tech jobs in neigborghgood city,and transportmap is green in evey city.
Note that High Tech doesn't employ only R§§§.
They employ 10% R§§§, 80% R§§ and 10% R§.
Anakin and Mercurio, could you also tell us which traffic simulator you're using?
i use the CAM traffic simulator...i installed the NAM-core too but the simulator is still CAM afaik.
the streets can support around 1000 cars so i think its CAM ???
I think check your taxes, in this and the direct neighboring cities, as well as the desirability map to see if there's a problem. If you've set the taxes too low in a neighboring city, your Sims are going to prefer to stay there. It doesn't have to be an extreme drop, try bumping it down by 0.2% at a time, until you do see growth.
http://www.simtropolis.com/modding/index.cfm?p=details&id=380
this is the last traffic simulater i used
al others a removed
i also use cleanitool to remove al other mods that have conflicts wit cam.
and i go experimental with taxes jus like you tel me
thanx for tips an help,very soon ,i show foto of my capital city an others.
i have 11 ones right know
a full vieuw of capital city
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Frny06bigview.jpg&hash=de529dd9c0626aadcf681529220dfa0abbe416fb)
and so are taxes off this city
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi85.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk58%2FAnakin6%2FSimcity4%2Ftaxesrny06.jpg&hash=297ca20a35fe29af86b8aad686a35263bbdbdaa8)
greetings anakin
got the same problem with res $$$ now.
i just created a city in the same region like my other cities but i added no connections to the other cities.
now ive got demand like hell but no building actions at all. desirability is green in the whole res-zone but they don't even recover the abandoned houses that are there.
dunno if its the jobs but my buildings won't grow more than medium density anyway °_O
also they seem to prefer building cheapskate commercials in a high-class commercial zone with water, parks, fire and police department and bright green CO$$$ desirability...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg100.imageshack.us%2Fimg100%2F1228%2Fresgg0.jpg&hash=24e9cb5aaa3be77905e7fe5d1354d6ca92321d36)
the census thingy doesn't even provide any useful regional information... maybe theres a glitch with unconnected cities or so... dunno
edit:
now i reinstalled CAM, packed the plugins folder and quit every program that could slow my CPU down and this happened:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg171.imageshack.us%2Fimg171%2F3823%2Frego2.jpg&hash=77681610be8ed3fbc34d930699cc240d2dd5161b)
It seems you've also plopped some parks in the area as well? Your capacities have been raised. Make sure to provide plenty of parks, education, and medical services for the upper class Sims.
If a city is not connected to the rest of the region, it cannot appreciate any of the benefits that go along with it. At some point, you'll see a news message telling you about the benefits of being neighborly.
Quote from: Mercurio on June 05, 2008, 02:53:57 PM
the census thingy doesn't even provide any useful regional information... maybe theres a glitch with unconnected cities or so... dunno
That's not really a glitch.
Regional capacities won't show up as long as the city isn't connected to the region.
A single freight railroad, or even a connection across water, is enough for the region to be seen though.
Since I've installed the CAM, I had no ressidential growth at ALL wealths :( (even in new cities!) and VERY LOW demands, so I lowered the taxes. It works, but this gave me huge developement problems (especially finanical). Is there any other way to solve this?
NOTE: I'm using a older region, and I don't want to lose it!
Quote from: mrtnrln on June 06, 2008, 03:25:38 AM
NOTE: I'm using a older region, and I don't want to lose it!
Since we know there might be issues with using CAM in an existing region, I hope you did backup your region.
Due to the doubled regional residential capacity and workforce, you will have a higher demand for workplaces with CAM 1.0.
In other words, you need more commercials and industrials before your residential demand picks up again.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi91.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk301%2Fditareinvented%2Fthmk54.gif&hash=f0402cc7931ec265d8b43dfea03b663acb64dd8a) I have no backup. This was months ago. So I must increase commercial jobs... OK.
Then what do I do if I want to create a community only driven by rural activities (farming). I'm not getting any growth in such cities, even tho farming is availble in heaps.
Quote from: caspervg on June 06, 2008, 06:22:21 AM
Then what do I do if I want to create a community only driven by rural activities (farming). I'm not getting any growth in such cities, even tho farming is availble in heaps.
If you have your city already developed and/or Manufacturing Industry is growing steady, it's usually very difficult or almost impossible to grow any farming. If you want to have a farming community, you should start zoning for that, before anything else, at least before any other industry.
Quotewhat do I do if I want to create a community only driven by rural activities
I don't know how developed your region is but from what you said I believe that you probably have a city that is very big? A lot of educated Sims?
Remember the word regional. Educated high wealth Sims in a large city will have a negative impact on farm growth in neighbor cities. I always decide where my big city will be when I start a new region. I'll then go every city where I want small towns, villages, and rural country side with farms. I develope them first. Then move onto my big city when the rural country side is done.
Other things to keep in mind is to do things that low wealth sims like as they are the ones that work in dirty industry and as farm hands. No police. Build a fire house when you need to put out a fire. No hospital. You can have a grade school if you wish but no high school until your farms are done. Water helps your dirty industrials to grow and you will also need garbage pickup. As too much garbage will have a negative impact on everything.
Actually, I have no large cities whatsoever. I've allways tried to build up my cities from realistic scratch (eg. farming to city). It's the first tile that I've tried to develop, and although farms grow as weeds, not one house wants to grow. (Water, Electricity and Fire Station are in place)
Quote from: caspervg on June 07, 2008, 05:17:54 AM
not one house wants to grow.
You're not using a mod blocking Maxis residentials?
That may have been the problem, it seems that some of my residential content was lost in the process of datpacking, I've added some content over from the Uncompressed folder, and that fixed it aswell ;)
I have a problem similar to that of Anakin's. Starting in a new region, starting with the very first city, high-wealth residential demand is very negative - down to the bottom of the chart. Low- and mid-wealth are normal. High wealth stays completely negative throughout the game UNLESS I lower taxes substantially. As taxes drop, demand starts moving up toward zero, and I start getting positive demand around the 4% tax rate. (This is regardless of the population.) Increase in demand starts tapering off around the 2% tax rate level, when it's a bit over 12,000 jobs. Continuing to lower taxes continues to increase demand, but with diminishing returns; nothing can bring demand even as high as 14,000 jobs. This happens in every city at every population. High wealth demand seems to be completely uninfluenced by any factors other than taxes. And it's not an eternal commuter problem, as I'm careful about them; besides, this happens in the very first city in a region. So what's going on here?
BTW, there's plenty of demand (and construction) across the board for Commercial and Industrial. This leads to the interesting spectacle of a lot of high-wealth commercial and high-tech industrial buildings, but no high-wealth residential population (unless I lower the tax rate).
The one thing that I've done that's a little nonstandard is that I've bumped the dirty industrial tax rate up to 20% right at the beginning, because I don't want any dirty industry in my cities. But I can't see how this would cause the results I described above.
One of the most important factors in order to get §§§ demand is education.
By increasing your population's EQ you start getting demand for I-HT and CO§§§.
Those are the prime motors for getting R§§§ demand growing.
Your average EQ needs to be a good deal above 150 for any substantial §§§ demand.
Check your EQ graph to see where you are at the moment.
Note also that you need to provide education to all age classes,
meaning elementary schools, highschools, colleges, libraries and museums.
My Sims are educated within an inch of their lives. The education graph quickly rises and stays within the 198 to 199 range. I get my five libraries and four museums, so I get the main library and major art museum. Every residence is within the radius of an elementary and a high school (which are kept under capacity), and I install the university as soon as it's available. Also, my Sims' life expectancy gets up to 95+, so this all seems to be working. And as I mentioned before, demand for I-HT and CO$$$ is quite healthy.
BTW, the problem I described started only when I installed CAM; before then, I had a normal residential demand distribution in my cities.
Could you post a screenie of the Census Repository Facility's query?
Here's a city that's about a third built. Most of the time I left the tax rates standard, and only recently did I drop the R$$$ rate to 3%. Current R$$$ demand is about 9000.
(https://publish.comcast.net/rpath/HHleMU9c5gRhLPkGjSITODq77_Ki_xqNNE5JAv8zqJ32UbyJ_zIU30ngceNzwKOuMLReUqpjzGp8vsoIpOIknBpwJZujiQ30iTph1CQAJik/)
Here's what happens when I drop the tax rate to 2%. The demand rises to 10% after the mandatory three month waiting period, not the 12% I thought I had remembered.
(https://publish.comcast.net/rpath/aCVhbaHVbQ3m6nPLYIc64MX8OUjicBcToDF_Rfh6OSpwouWSQ0Dyf1qNWH03HuKaCPxmKE9YTYBkc9_Ai-2dfXTUc9U3fxNn0CcS9z5ob6o/)
Now if I raise the tax rate to 9%, where everything else except dirty industry is, demand plunges negative to the bottom of the graph as of the next month transition. The CRF now looks like this:
(https://publish.comcast.net/rpath/Rnrr0GBvQVFs8mO46oZAw-8btC_YG_eeKMBy8EbdSrRk5Wb0JDkd-Fc9oIWvLYU1w_X0wY1rfQ2T6jcPwQydpsxw6METCrxT28AhbbrgvAs/)
One final point: When I start a region, I typically create a bunch of cities that I start just long enough to give them names. They have no residents or jobs. So all of my active cities are surrounded by one or more of these cities, at least initially. But even when a city is surrounded only by active cities, this problem still remains.
You need more jobs. For the region as a whole, you have nearly 800,000 unemployed Sims. What Stages has Com & Ind reached now?
Quote from: z on June 18, 2008, 01:11:59 AM
Here's a city that's about a third built. Most of the time I left the tax rates standard, and only recently did I drop the R$$$ rate to 3%. Current R$$$ demand is about 9000.
The demand graph in the game is logarithmic, so you cannot read the exact demand from them.
The only values that are correctly shown in the graph are the minimum (-6000), 0 and maximum (+24000).
What in the logarthmic graph appears to be +9,000 is in fact only +1,343
When you lowered the tax the demand went up to +2,375
When you increased the tax, the demand went down to -5,236
All these demands can be read from the Census Repository Facility's query.
Almost 10% of the city's population is R§§§, and that's quite normal in a city with good coverage of education.
xxdita: I see the numbers you're looking at, but I don't think they're correct, and I don't think I have 800,000 unemployed Sims. The CRF says I have a total workforce of 6.5 million, yet my regional population (both as shown in the regional view and as the sum of the cities' population) is 5.3 million. As not all of these are in the workforce, the CRF's number seems vastly overstated. (Perhaps this is related to the problem.) Furthermore, in most of my cities, the total jobs exceed the population, with the exception of one city, which has a large number of commuters into downtown, where the jobs vastly exceed the population. R and C have reached stage 15, and I has reached stage 10. Here are my cities, arranged according to position; the overall numbers look pretty good to me. But remember, this is running R$$$ at a 2% tax rate. (The city is Chicago, for those who are familiar with it.) All numbers are in thousands.
Logan Square Lincoln Park
R: 368 R: 1547
C: 121 C: 442
I: 77 I: 176
Near West Side Downtown
R: 917 R: 656
C: 631 C: 1379
I: 658 I: 117
Near South Side
R: 1803
C: 862
I: 877
These numbers look good to me, and furthermore, the cities look very healthy. No dilapidation, almost never any abandonment, and almost never any briefcase zots. Most of the maps develop very quickly, except occasionally for some far corners, which do develop over time. Mayor ratings range from the high 80's to over 100. And all of this is true even if I grow a city with R$$$ at the default tax rate of 9%, which results in no R$$$ population.
RippleJet: I didn't know that the demand graph was logarithmic. Is it possible to fix the scale numbers?
Yes, I now have a healthy R$$$ population, but that's with the tax rate at 3%. The city is 84 years old, and I ran it for the first 50 years with R$$$ set to the standard 9% rate. The Jobs and Pop graph confirms that during this time, the R$$$ population was zero. When I dropped the tax rate, the R$$$ population quickly climbed. Only at this time did I get offered the Country Club, which requires 2000 R$$$; usually, I get that offered much earlier in the game.
Quote from: z on June 18, 2008, 01:21:38 PM
As not all of these are in the workforce, the CRF's number seems vastly overstated. (Perhaps this is related to the problem.)
This is indeed the very problem.
It's been known for quite a while now that changing certain RCI exemplars makes the game double those numbers.
As if the game machine loads the exemplars twice, and adds them to each other.
That's not how external dat files normally are read,
where an external plugin would supersede the exemplars residing within SimCity_1.dat.
Both the regional residential capacity and the regional workforce becomes doubled the way your city sees them.
In other words, the development simulator thinks there are 100% more residents in your region, than there really is.
This all leads to a larger need for jobs, than you would expect otherwise.
We have been fighting with this for quite a while, with the hopes of releasing CAM 1.1 with a solution.
So far, the only solution seems to be a direct patching of the RCI files into SimCity_1.dat.
And our tests have also shown that the demand will plunge if upgrading CAM 1.0 to CAM 1.1.
In addition to that, the
ToolMan looking into making the patching an automated process, is rather busy with another unreleased
Tool ::)
Quote from: z on June 18, 2008, 01:21:38 PM
RippleJet: I didn't know that the demand graph was logarithmic. Is it possible to fix the scale numbers?
Unfortunately, no. At least I haven't found any properties controlling that.
Only the minimum and maximum values can be set by properties in certain exemplars.
This is beginning to make a lot of sense. It also explains why, on average, my cities need more jobs than residents to run smoothly; they didn't used to before installing CAM.
Since I know nothing of the internals of CAM, I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but anyway...
If you know which RCI exemplars are causing the numbers to be doubled, can't you just change your numbers to correct for the doubling? And if the doubling only happens in certain circumstances, can't you check the numbers that you're getting against the game's numbers for consistency, since the regional population displayed in the region view is always correct? My apologies if these are nonsensical questions.
Also, I hope you're going to fix the problem about demand plunging if upgrading from CAM 1.0 to 1.1 before release. I assume so, but it wasn't quite clear from your message.
Finally, although it's clear now why I need so many more jobs than I would expect, I still don't see why R$$$ is now tied to a lower tax rate. This happens with a population as low as a few hundred. And yet R$ and R$$ work as before. Although in an old region that I converted to CAM, I had the exact same problems with both R$$ and R$$$.
Other than that, the conversion worked perfectly. Very strange.
Anyway, CAM is fantastic, and I wouldn't be playing SC4 at this point without it. Congratulations on what you've accomplished so far, and good luck getting everything resolved and moving forward.
Unfortunately, having any numbers in the exemplar properties in question only adds to what's already in the game files. So the only way to fix it the patch RippleJet mentioned. Sometimes the best way to adjust for this is to create throwaway cities, full of Commercial & Industrial jobs, and no residents (a small tile here and there throughout the region usually). This should give the balance needed. Another solution would be to plop high capacity Ind & Com buildings in major cities.
If the numbers from the different exemplars are being added together, wouldn't zeroing out the appropriate numbers in the RCI exemplars in SimCity_1.dat fix the problem, at least on an ad hoc basis? Has anyone tried this?
Yes, but then you should backup your original simcity_1.dat
So to make a short reply, do it at your own risk
I'm testing CAM 1.1 with a modified simcity_1.dat ( in the way Tage wrote ), and so far it is ok.
Actually, that was tested, at least somewhat. Modifying the simcity_x.dats with Reader can really screw them up, preventing the game from starting. So the alternative is to create a patch to change the particular properties of the exemplars in question.
Patching it to remove the properties altogether would make a mess of things, should CAM not be installed. So it's better to just patch the CAM exemplars into the simcity_1.dat, to prevent any issues. If a user feels it necessary to uninstall for any reason, it's as simple as replacing the backed up simcity_1.dat, which is also available on disc 2 of the game.
I'm about to blow up a region I worked on for 10 months. I designed the configuration before I knew how the CAM worked. So I had the eternal workforce problem. But I redid my transportation so that I didn't have any commuters going from A to B to C to A. Yet, residential demand still plummeted. As a last resort, I demolished all city connections in hopes the game would recalculate how many are acutally in the region (little over 200,000). But it still says 315,000+ (according to the CRF).
Any suggestions?
Quote from: c0rnh0li0 on June 27, 2008, 12:47:53 AM
I'm about to blow up a region I worked on for 10 months. I designed the configuration before I knew how the CAM worked. So I had the eternal workforce problem. But I redid my transportation so that I didn't have any commuters going from A to B to C to A. Yet, residential demand still plummeted. As a last resort, I demolished all city connections in hopes the game would recalculate how many are acutally in the region (little over 200,000). But it still says 315,000+ (according to the CRF).
The eternal commuters are unfortunately permanently saved in the saved game files.
Thus, even if you bulldoze all border connections, they would still be there.
They don't even have to be seen as people actually commuting over the border.
The Simulator only sees them as residential capacity available elsewhere (not specifically where) in the region.
Due to this there is also very little chance of recovering a region that has built up a huge amount of eternal commuters.
Even without the CAM you would at some point have experienced the same sooner or later (later than with the CAM in play though).
The only chance of getting some sort of recovery is to substantially increase the number of industrial and commercial jobs in your region.
Quote from: RippleJet on June 27, 2008, 04:24:46 AM
The eternal commuters are unfortunately permanently saved in the saved game files.
Thus, even if you bulldoze all border connections, they would still be there.
They don't even have to be seen as people actually commuting over the border.
The Simulator only sees them as residential capacity available elsewhere (not specifically where) in the region.
Due to this there is also very little chance of recovering a region that has built up a huge amount of eternal commuters.
Even without the CAM you would at some point have experienced the same sooner or later (later than with the CAM in play though).
The only chance of getting some sort of recovery is to substantially increase the number of industrial and commercial jobs in your region.
That won't work. I'm irritated as it is w/20 floor commercial bldgs w/no workers. :thumbsdown: Oh well, back to the drawing board. :'(
I am running to the same issue with one of my suburbs but it happens with others. The growth slows even though I placed a number of parks and schools etc. but all residental growth stop even though I have enough demand. Can anyone help me please
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi288.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll175%2Ffantcs%2Fsimcity.jpg&hash=48b957eec1c09c351bb060fb47e453d4ea440bdb)
Your Census Report looks very healthy, so there sholdn't be anything restricting R§ and R§§ from growing.
With a regional residential capacity of 14,000 you should be getting a lot of stage 4 buildings, but also some stage 5.
Can you just make sure you haven't zoned only low density residential zones?
Another possible cause would be that you already have a lot of stage 2-5 houses,
and the simulator is trying to grow some more stage 1 houses.
In that case you'd need more undeveloped residential zones.
Here's a question: What if I took the CAM out of the plugins, then reinstall it?
Quote from: RippleJet on June 28, 2008, 01:02:47 AM
Your Census Report looks very healthy, so there sholdn't be anything restricting R§ and R§§ from growing.
With a regional residential capacity of 14,000 you should be getting a lot of stage 4 buildings, but also some stage 5.
Can you just make sure you haven't zoned only low density residential zones?
Another possible cause would be that you already have a lot of stage 2-5 houses,
and the simulator is trying to grow some more stage 1 houses.
In that case you'd need more undeveloped residential zones.
so far I have develop a lot of low density zones. but mostly between stage 1 -3 and some four. So I shoud go to medium density?
Quote from: fantnet on June 28, 2008, 08:38:33 AM
so far I have develop a lot of low density zones. but mostly between stage 1 -3 and some four. So I shoud go to medium density?
Yes, most stage 4 and all stage 5 residential houses require medium density zones to grow.
And by zoning medium density only in certain centrally located places,
you can pretty well determine where to get your first midrises. ;)
Quote from: RippleJet on June 27, 2008, 04:24:46 AM
The eternal commuters are unfortunately permanently saved in the saved game files.
Thus, even if you bulldoze all border connections, they would still be there.
They don't even have to be seen as people actually commuting over the border.
The Simulator only sees them as residential capacity available elsewhere (not specifically where) in the region.
Due to this there is also very little chance of recovering a region that has built up a huge amount of eternal commuters.
Even without the CAM you would at some point have experienced the same sooner or later (later than with the CAM in play though).
The only chance of getting some sort of recovery is to substantially increase the number of industrial and commercial jobs in your region.
But if you eliminate the eternal commuter problem from each city in the region and then save that city, won't that fix the problem?
Quote from: z on July 03, 2008, 12:53:23 PM
But if you eliminate the eternal commuter problem from each city in the region and then save that city, won't that fix the problem?
Unfortunately no. Removing the border connections won't reduce the residential capacity the city believes it has already seen in its neighbours. The capacity will always be there and taken into account by the simulator when counting the balance between workforce (residential capacity) and jobs (industrial and commercial capacity), even if no residents would actually physically be crossing the border.
But certainly each city has to recalculate its neighbors' residential capacity from time to time - that's how it got the erroneous figures in the first place. I'm not doubting what you say, I just don't understand why there can't be some way of bringing these capacity numbers back closer to reality. For example, if the residential population of a neighbor city grows substantially after an eternal commuter connection has been cut, wouldn't this have the desired effect (at least with that one city)?
Unfortunately I don't know exactly how the game computes and takes neighbours into consideration.
However, my experience is that the capacity seen through neighbour connections can only increase, not decrease :(
Hey guys,,
I got a question..
I start a new city.
It has high residential demand and it already connected with other city.
The region population about 100k.
And i already place the high density residential,
but it won't develop into an apartment, it just a small house.
Can someone help me?
I think your region population is just too low to make highrises to grow. They start to grow at 500k region pop. (I think)
Quote from: RippleJet on July 04, 2008, 03:35:35 PM
Unfortunately I don't know exactly how the game computes and takes neighbours into consideration.
However, my experience is that the capacity seen through neighbour connections can only increase, not decrease :(
Yes, after all you people have done, it's sometimes easy to forget that you've never even seen the original source code.
Right now, I'm just having the problem that the bigger my region grows, the more sluggish it becomes. I'm hoping that the RCI demand fix will cure a lot of this problem. (BTW, I'd be a very willing beta tester for that fix.) There's one more solution that has occurred to me, and that seems a lot less drastic than blowing up an entire region.
We know that all the demand data is saved in the city files, because those are the only data files there are. Suppose I were to copy my whole region to another folder, and then delete every city in the original region. At this point, one would think (one would hope!) that there would be no intercity demand anywhere, and that all populations would be zero. (If this were not the case, as you implied might be possible in your last message, you could always start with a fresh map.) At this point, you could import the cities from your saved region into your original region, one by one. One would think (or again, at least hope!) that Maxis would be smart enough not to import external demand along with city data. If this is true, you'd be starting with actual demand figures once you start your cities up again, assuming you had the RCI demand fix installed. How does that sound?
No, mrtrin
In other city I already have stage 8 residential building.
I create 5 cities, but only one citiy don't have stage 8 building.
The residential demand very high.
Am I doing something wrong?
Does your city has enough jobs? That is also a limit factor.
Quote from: z on July 05, 2008, 03:55:59 PM
At this point, you could import the cities from your saved region into your original region, one by one. One would think (or again, at least hope!) that Maxis would be smart enough not to import external demand along with city data. If this is true, you'd be starting with actual demand figures once you start your cities up again, assuming you had the RCI demand fix installed. How does that sound?
I don't think that has been tested, so I'd love to see you make some experimenting.
The fact is however, that the regional demand and capacity numbers are saved independently with each city, and they never match each other completely.
Importing such a city would most probably import the saved regional capacity data as well.
The saved regional demand and capacities are part of the extrapolation that the game does.
While playing a city, it is assumed that the neighbouring cities continue to grow at the same time (although not being played at the same time).
That is handled by the extrapolated demand.
In order not to loose such an extrapolated demand you should e.g. always play a city till it has grown about 10%.
Otherwise you'd loose some of the demand extrapolated to this city from around it.
Quote from: gallard0_inc on July 05, 2008, 09:02:05 AM
It has high residential demand and it already connected with other city.
The region population about 100k.
And i already place the high density residential,
but it won't develop into an apartment, it just a small house.
Can someone help me?
I'd suggest that you continue to play. Sooner or later highrises will start to appear.
Also make sure some of your residential zones are in fact high density.
With a regional residential capacity of 100,000 you still only have a 6-13% chance of growing stage 8 or 9:
Quote from: RippleJet on January 16, 2008, 06:18:09 PM
Residential Stage Limits
The threshold values are in all cases the total regional residential capacity (not population): R§ + R§§ + R§§§.
Specifically for the CAM, the threshold values are set higher for R§§§ than for R§§, and higher for R§§ than for R§.
R§ | R§§ | R§§§ | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage | Stage |
| | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |
| |
69469 | 78124 | 86836 | 2 % | 4 % | 6 % | 19 % | 22 % | 25 % | 16 % | 6 % |
86836 | 97655 | 108545 | 1 % | 3 % | 5 % | 16 % | 19 % | 23 % | 20 % | 11 % | 2 % |
Quote from: RippleJet on July 06, 2008, 11:28:09 AM
I don't think that has been tested, so I'd love to see you make some experimenting.
I think I'll wait for wouanagaine's demand patch, and see how much of my problem that fixes. If I still have noticeable problems after that, I'll try experimenting with importing, and I'll be sure to let you know of the results.
Yeah my city got alot of jobs and they all highrise building.
Ok, maybe I should try your advice RippleJet.
Thanks for the advice everyone :thumbsup:.
Quote from: RippleJet on June 28, 2008, 12:04:24 PM
Yes, most stage 4 and all stage 5 residential houses require medium density zones to grow.
And by zoning medium density only in certain centrally located places,
you can pretty well determine where to get your first midrises. ;)
Thanks for all of your help thus far. how big can I expect my suburbs to grow before I get to more urban areas? I hav 4-5 medium sized city tiles surroung my expected more urban area? right I am growing on low density and low stages.
Quote from: fantnet on July 08, 2008, 08:31:38 PM
Thanks for all of your help thus far. how big can I expect my suburbs to grow before I get to more urban areas? I hav 4-5 medium sized city tiles surroung my expected more urban area? right I am growing on low density and low stages.
That is a good question, and I would love to see how high a regional residential capacity you would be able to achieve using only low density zoning.
At some stage the growth should stop when the simulator needs to build higher growth stages, but cannot due to the lack of medium density zones.
My Chicago simulation is having more and more difficulties with demand, especially as I move away from the downtown area, with its huge skyscrapers, and out into the more residential areas of the city, where residences significantly outnumber businesses and industry in a given tile. It is clear by now that RippleJet's and xxdita's analysis is completely correct, and that it is the CAM demand bug that is causing most of my problems. It sounds like wouanagaine's fix will take care of that nicely, but I'd like to do something until then (especially since he's established that the basic idea behind the fix seems to work). If someone could point me to the relevant CAM data, I'd be happy to use SC4Tool to edit the relevant values into my copy of SimCity_1.dat directly, and to remove the CAM version. Would someone be willing to do so?