The in game buildings come in four styles.... We all know how they work.
But is it possible to control growth of other lots?
I use a large amount of lots by many people here.
In my games I would like to have control over the lots to grow. Like the ones by Haarlemmergold if I make a Dutch village. I want to have some kind of repetition in the lots. Like streets with all the same lot...
I tried to do it by just putting the wanted lots (e.g. Haarlemmergolds Dutch lots) into my plugins folder and then grew my village. Then, as it was completed, I made all historical :-[, saved and exited the game. Then I removed the lots and put the second group into the plugins folder.
As I started the game I expected to see a lot of brown boxes, but that wasn't the case. I saw just the base/overlay textures with props, but no buildings. Then I grew my next neighbourhood and made all buildings historical :-[ again... Save and exit.
After reinstalling the Haarlemmergold lots and entering the game again I found out that all Haarlemmergold buildings were deleted. I still only saw the bases and props... What happened? Apparently the game deleted the buildings/props that were not available.... :'(
Did anyone ever experience someting like this? ()what()
And, my real question, does anyone know a way to control the building styles?
In a more or less flexible way?
Of course I could do it by starting with one building style..... build everything I want, make it historical, and save the game. Then add a second building style (i.e. put a subfolder into the plugins folder) and play on.
But we can hardly call this flexible, can't we?
You cannot remove custom buildings after they grew or were plopped in a city - either it would cause brown boxes, or the models would disappear. It's too bad that Maxis didn't gave us the possibility to add custom building styles to the game - apart from custom menus, this would be the greatest addition. If you want to use different building sets, such as Dutch buildings, Paris buildings etc., the only feasible way would be to use a Maxis blocker, and then modify the building style occupant groups in a way that would move all buildings of a particular style into one of the four in-game styles. Say, all Paris buildings would be Chicago style, all Dutch buildings would be New York style, all mediterranean buildings would be Houston style and all Hamburg buildings would be Euro style. This way, you could control four different building sets with the in-game controls.
Quote from: FrankU on November 25, 2007, 06:08:56 AM
And, my real question, does anyone know a way to control the building styles?
In a more or less flexible way?
We would need a "toolman" for that... ::) ::) ::)
Do you delete just the lots or do you delete the whole thing?
I did not delete anything....
I just removed files. But you probably wanted to know if I removed everything or only the models. No, I removed all files from the downloads: models, desc etc. Usually they appear in one dat file. Don't they? I did not split up the files...
Andreas: your answer is clear enough. Thanks. I feared this would be the only possible thing. But you never know... There is so much possible in this game.
If you keep everything but the lot file, it should work.
Well, I've been away for awhile so I may have forgotten things, but isn't one option to simply use "ploppables" if made by the creator, (ploppable that add jobs or residents, rather than "eye-candy-landmarks"), when trying to somewhat "control" building establishments?
If I'm correct this would work if you simply zone a desired area, and then wait for it to start grow, and once erected, simply place the desired ploppable version on top of the recently constructed building! Although I may be wrong of course. Not sure if the particular choice of zoning have an influence, meaning; If you want to place a high-wealth residential building, you must also zone high-wealth! It does make sense though, but you never know!
There are of course ploppables outthere working as landmarks only, and not adding jobs nor residents, but perhaps it's possible to change that using some simple tool or anything. I do hope I'm somewhat right in my assumptions, otherwise I'm up for another very very time-consuming challenge... :'(
Plop would work for commercial and industry, but I do not think anyone has solved the problem with residential lots yet. Last I looked into it you get a no job zot or a no road zot. I don't really remember which.
If you do use res plops you will have a decent population based on what building you plop but if you unpause that region all of your population will leave. I really hope someone can find a way to allow for residential plops without the population leaving. It would really add some twists to building up a region.
Oookey...I see I'm up for yet another challenge... ??? :angrymore:
SAC, since you've been gone for a while you've probably also missed Buggi's SC4 Extra Cheats (http://host.simvision.net/SC4ExtraCheats.zip).
Place that DLL file in your C:\Program\Maxis\SimCity 4\Plugins folder, start the game and press Ctrl-X.
Right-click in the cheat box that appears on top and you will get the following cheat menu:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg133.imageshack.us%2Fimg133%2F6043%2Fcheatdropdowntk3.jpg&hash=e25ed2175da5d63bf59ce268fa5773efd926f161)
Thanks to Dedgren for the image
BuildingPlop (and LotPlop) allows you to plop any building, including growables! ;)
Plopped residentials will still not work though, the sims simply cannot find their way out of a plopped home... $%Grinno$%
And plopped Industrials are not functionning either, they all have a 'long' commute time even if plopped next to a neighbor connexion.
This is the same 'bug/feature' as the residential. ie the game doesn't know how to compute a path from a plopable, but only to a plopable
Quote from: wouanagaine on November 25, 2007, 11:52:19 AM
And plopped Industrials are not functionning either, they all have a 'long' commute time even if plopped next to a neighbor connexion.
Wouanagaine meant long "freight time", not long "commute". It's freight that is going out of industries. :thumbsup:
I have two questions:
1. If I will plop a growable residential building using Extra Cheats Plugin (first I zone the area, then appear a growable building, I bulldoze it and replace by other building from the same wealth group), will it work properly or not?
2. As we know, there are some ploppable residentials (for example some Paris buildings). What is the practical sense of making them this way (instead of normal growables or landmarks), if they don't work properly (I noticed it too ;))?
Answering the OP, you can control building by explicitly control zoning and know on which size each of your building grows
I suggest you read this http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=63.0 and any of Alek King post :)
@Tage, thx for correcting :)
@Ennedi,
1.it will work for a short period of time, and you'll have the original building commuter, but at the end, it will dilapidate, there was a thread about that experiment on ST, don't have a link.
2.There is no reason of residential plopable
@wouanagaine: Thank you, I observed this effect (1), but didn't know about the reason and I was thinking I did something wrong ::)
Quote from: Pheonix Rising on November 25, 2007, 09:24:03 AM
Plop would work for commercial and industry, but I do not think anyone has solved the problem with residential lots yet. Last I looked into it you get a no job zot or a no road zot. I don't really remember which.
If you do use res plops you will have a decent population based on what building you plop but if you unpause that region all of your population will leave. I really hope someone can find a way to allow for residential plops without the population leaving. It would really add some twists to building up a region.
Couldn't agree more! Even if you as a mayor have the ability to plop your city, it still remains lots and lots of work planning everything out, so it's not as if the actual game-play would get ruined by having a plop-option. If only it was possible to sort of create "invisible" lots, programmed for a certain wealth level, including jobs or residents, which would allow us to "plop" graphics, (B.A.T's), on top of it - for the sake of the development control itself! &mmm
Quote from: RippleJet on November 25, 2007, 11:08:24 AM
Place that DLL file in your C:\Program\Maxis\SimCity 4\Plugins folder, start the game and press Ctrl-X.
BuildingPlop (and LotPlop) allows you to plop any building, including growables! ;)
Plopped residentials will still not work though, the sims simply cannot find their way out of a plopped home... $%Grinno$%
Nice "new" feature. I must say I'm kind of stuck between letting my city grow as supposed - although it'll take a tremendous amount of time to accomplish what I want, or to simply use this "new feature" and create Olympia the way I want it to look, (for the sake of realism and eye-candy effect), but then also leave out the other great aspects of the game as a result thereof. Difficult choice indeed! ???
Anyways, if I get this right I can at least "control" commercial lots - regardless of type and wealth levels - by simply zoning and allow for a structure to grow, then plop a new structure of my own choice on top of that recently built one, and everything should work properly with sims able to find their way both in and out? But with residential and industrial lots, I'll simply have to wait, and bulldoze...and wait, and bulldoze...and wait, and bulldoze...until the desired structure shows up, then make it historical for everything to work properly?
Another question: Let's say we have a group of buildings (residential or industrial) in the same style and the same growth stage. But some of them will grow easier than another ones.
1. Which properties of these buildings decide about it?
2. Is it possible to temporary change the specific property value in the particular building .dat file to give to it the biggest chance to grow, open the game, wait till the building will grow (it will grow very easy now), save the game, change property value(s) to their previous state, and then repeat this operation with other building?
Quote from: Ennedi on November 25, 2007, 01:46:41 PM
Another question: Let's say we have a group of buildings (residential or industrial) in the same style and the same growth stage. But some of them will grow easier than another ones.
1. Which properties of these buildings decide about it?
2. Is it possible to temporary change the specific property value in the particular building .dat file to give to it the biggest chance to grow, open the game, wait till the building will grow (it will grow very easy now), save the game, change property value(s) to their previous state, and then repeat this operation with other building?
Buildings that are properly modded (with the "X Tool") should all have exactly the same chance of growing.
The variance in the approximation is very wide though, so sometimes it might look as the game is favouring a particular building.
Occupancy has been one property that in the past has been increased, in order to favour certain buildings of a particular growth stage to grow.
However, that is something I strongly recommend not to do, since that will cause problems for the developement simulators,
when lower stage buildings get higher density than existing higher stage buildings.
Another property that you might be able to tweak is the building value.
But the influence of that isn't strong enough for you to be able to decide what buildings to grow.
Quote from: SAC on November 25, 2007, 12:48:12 PM
Anyways, if I get this right I can at least "control" commercial lots - regardless of type and wealth levels - by simply zoning and allow for a structure to grow, then plop a new structure of my own choice on top of that recently built one, and everything should work properly with sims able to find their way both in and out? But with residential and industrial lots, I'll simply have to wait, and bulldoze...and wait, and bulldoze...and wait, and bulldoze...until the desired structure shows up, then make it historical for everything to work properly?
That is in theory possible using overhanging buildings...
The picture below does, unfortunately, not show a building with both residents and workers:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg87.imageshack.us%2Fimg87%2F9167%2Fcommuterstopreposarenatia5.jpg&hash=e6c0caa0845af724be4a3b87d9d5e8e2d0aeff48)
Instead, Prepo's Arenantalo is an overhanging (partly diagonal) building, which allows you to zone e.g. small residential lots inside it.
Thus, those living in those hidden houses commute to the Arenantalo, and it looks as if they do live in the same building.
Quote from: RippleJet on November 25, 2007, 02:17:37 PM
Instead, Prepo's Arenantalo is an overhanging (partly diagonal) building, which allows you to zone e.g. small residential lots inside it.
Thus, those living in those hidden houses commute to the Arenantalo, and it looks as if they do live in the same building.
Tage, this idea is one of the best I have seen from quite long time! :D
And it gives also other possibilities. You can for example, make an overhanging 1x1 lot with some interesting sidewalk props and place it inside the overhanging building. The base would be hidden, but props would be visible ;)
Quote from: Ennedi on November 25, 2007, 02:31:51 PM
Tage, this idea is one of the best I have seen from quite long time! :D
The idea was actually
Prepo's himself! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Ennedi on November 25, 2007, 02:31:51 PM
And it gives also other possibilities. You can for example, make an overhanging 1x1 lot with some interesting sidewalk props and place it inside the overhanging building. The base would be hidden, but props would be visible ;)
You can also place parks, plazas and other lots that only partly are visible, partly hidden by the overhanging building, as shown with
Krio's Esplanadi buildings here:
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=712.msg63184#msg63184
I've been following this thread for ages and playing with getting different structures to grow myself.
With CAM, and therefore properly modded lots using the X-Tool, everything really does have the same chance to grow. If you want to limit what grows, that's where the fun part comes in.
I must preface this by saying that I ONLY use custom lots and BATs for my commerical and residential growables, for industry I only use Maxis I-HT as there simply aren't enough I-HT BATs available (hint hint at any Industrial BATer reading this ;)). In order to accomplish this I have the very flexible BSC No Maxis Mod installed.
What I do (sometimes) is only have the buildings I really want to grow in my plugins while I'm playing. That way, they're guaranteed to show up.
For example, if you want to be a residential area with only Prepo's W2W buildings, simply leave them as the only R$$ in your plugins and play away. Once they've grown, make them historic and add the rest of the custom residentals back into the game.
I haven't had any problems with this yet. I will experiment and let you know if any bad things happen.
Cheers,
Kevin
Hello SAC ,
Indeed , as you're discovering the amount of new stuff came out since you left , you'll need a method to see grow what you want without bulldoze and wait and so on indefinately ... BigSlark has given you a good one ; the "No Maxis Building " Mod which can be very selective + the move in/out of your custom content from your plugin folder depending what you want to see grow . As you told to sort out your plugins in the same way , that should be easy for you .
Another way and link have been given to you by Jeroni in your MD ; how to make growable mega-lots . The residential parisian blocks you have seen in my MD are growing mega-lots . Due to their particular sizes (10x10 , but can be changed to 4x10 , 5x10 , 6x10 , 6x6 , 4x6 , 5x6 , etc ) it's easy to get them controlling the zoning with the Ctrl key when you're zoning . I haven't created mine using this tutorial though ... I've used a serial of existing growing residential mega-lots from barbyW ; "Quartier Alex" , "Quartier Touraine" , "Place des Alpes" , "Les Pauvres" (they have different wealth levels ) , changing their sizes and , of course , using Porkissimo's and Xannepan's BATs as props ...
Currently , these very useful Lots aren't available anymore at Simtropolis and haven't been transfered to the LEX . (They should be ! )
An example with Quartier Touraine , the original Lot ;
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F1476%2Ftouraine01iy2.jpg&hash=05e19789ba74cd2ee6f290e0db66dd00a21474d3)
Now I've cleared the Lot , so you can see the building of this Lot ...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F9611%2Ftouraine02bc6.jpg&hash=5d8eaab7ad3315410d54766d462a840233849a08)
And from there several of my versions ....
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F8480%2Ftouraine03fh8.jpg&hash=528d5397cf9069562d63b6758bc9aa75f25bdd75)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F1434%2Ftouraine04mk4.jpg&hash=4ad247b2cbbdf6c98f4e8bac052952f7bc8a232e)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F6696%2Ftouraine05tb3.jpg&hash=6d84f9ad04ed41053217ef40e0753eda23401a51)
... I can't show them all . $%Grinno$%... but as I'm sure you're going to use massively your LotEditing skill , this method is for you as well . ;)
Quote from: RippleJet on November 25, 2007, 02:17:37 PM
Instead, Prepo's Arenantalo is an overhanging (partly diagonal) building, which allows you to zone e.g. small residential lots inside it.
Thus, those living in those hidden houses commute to the Arenantalo, and it looks as if they do live in the same building.
Well, that's a neat trick! :) Perhaps not solving the issue itself, but still!
Quote from: BigSlark on November 25, 2007, 06:41:46 PM
What I do (sometimes) is only have the buildings I really want to grow in my plugins while I'm playing. That way, they're guaranteed to show up.
For example, if you want to be a residential area with only Prepo's W2W buildings, simply leave them as the only R$$ in your plugins and play away. Once they've grown, make them historic and add the rest of the custom residentals back into the game.
I haven't had any problems with this yet. I will experiment and let you know if any bad things happen.
Looking forward to the results. While I generally don't care that much about industrial lots as they're usually a chaotic mess even in real life, (something which gives them their characteristic appearance obviously :)), I'm more in need of controlling the residential lots. If trying to develop those typical European residential areas, it's necessary to be able to have some influence on what's being built - and where! Your idea seems to be a descent alternative as far as I can see. Still, just to be sure, when you've made the residential lots historical, and then want to continue with another area using other residential lots, what's the procedure?
I understand that you'll have to include those previously removed lots again, (i.e. .desc, .model, .lot), but what about those lots constructed as a result of your process? If you don't want any of those buildings to appear in your next area you're trying to control with your "trick", which files are needed to be removed making this possible? Is it enough to remove the lots - and adding them back again when eveything is done? Btw, what happens if you remove a lot from the folders that has been built in a game? I should probably know this, but since I've been away for a couple of years, it feels as if I'm starting all over again... :D
Quote from: SAC on November 26, 2007, 01:45:29 AM
I understand that you'll have to include those previously removed lots again, (i.e. .desc, .model, .lot), but what about those lots constructed as a result of your process? If you don't want any of those buildings to appear in your next area you're trying to control with your "trick", which files are needed to be removed making this possible? Is it enough to remove the lots - and adding them back again when eveything is done? Btw, what happens if you remove a lot from the folders that has been built in a game? I should probably know this, but since I've been away for a couple of years, it feels as if I'm starting all over again... :D
Well , I'm not so familiar with this method but have had a few experiences by accident .... You can remove only the Lots , if you keep the Model files (and Desc ) you'll not get brown boxes on already existing Lots in your city ... maybe a .sav file is created , to verify .... these .sav files are Lots and can be ( have to be ) deleted then all the process is done .
Quote from: Badsim on November 26, 2007, 01:54:43 AM
Well , I'm not so familiar with this method but have had a few experiences by accident .... You can remove only the Lots , if you keep the Model files (and Desc ) you'll not get brown boxes on already existing Lots in your city ... maybe a .sav file is created , to verify .... these .sav files are Lots and can be ( have to be ) deleted then all the process is done .
Okey, this is what I need to know for sure. I find the method useful as explained by BigSlark, and it could work as an alternative when other options aren't there, but I really need to know how to continue with the process, (lots that have been placed and marked historically accordingly), so nothing goes wrong! :)
And you're absolutely right Cedric, I'm up for a massive use of the LotEditor. I'm highly considering the "No-Maxis-Lot"-mod, but as I want to use at least some of Maxis original B.A.T's, I will probably have to create my own custom lots for that to happen. Another thing is that I often re-made a lot of them custom-made lots when I played the last time, and I'm sure this'll happen again! :D
As for mega-lots, well...while it's a good idea I'm not sure it'll work in a city such as Olympia. The reason be is that I used, and will use, a heavily mountainious terrain, and often this means that it's impossible to use mega-lots, as the terrain even in smaller areas tend to be somewhat "hilly" and above all - horrible! :D I think I will go with the usual sizes, allowing me to make wonders with terrain, buildings, infrastructure, and the likes again! ;D Besides, knowing me I often tend to redo things all the time to improve, and if having a giant megalot in the way, might not be the best thing for me - or that purpose at all! $%Grinno$%
Have a doubt about what has been said about this NoMaxisMod ... A BSC one ? I thought it was from DuskTrooper ( which is active here from time to time ) and at Simtropolis ... ::)
As I said , SAC, this mod is very selective ( RCI and by wealth level ...) .
And for sure , I prefer to see you in unbelievably heavily mountains ! :thumbsup:
On a side note , what has became of your famous avatar ? ;D
Ok guys, this is going out of hand now.... ;D
It's a very interesting thread and I appreciate all replies very much, but I hope you don't think bad of me if I say: this is too much work for me.
I hoped there would be some quite easy way to control growth of lots, but I know now that there is no such thing.
Of course the BSC No Maxis mod helps a bit.
Moving and removing of files is useful but I don't see how I could work with removing the lot files, but keeping the mod and desc files... It will be a mess within three days!
I'm afraid I have to live with it...
Although Andreas had a quite useful answer: renaming the lotfiles in my personal plugins folder into the four building styles available... :-[
Who knows, maybe I am going to do that.
Thanks all of you.
Quote from: Badsim on November 26, 2007, 02:38:29 AM
And for sure , I prefer to see you in unbelievably heavily mountains ! :thumbsup:
:D Well, I am very eager to get started, but I'm still in the process of downloading new stuff - and considering the amount of all that, I'd say I have yet a couple of days to go... ;D To say the least...
Quote
On a side note , what has became of your famous avatar ? ;D
Nothing, as far as I know! I haven't uploaded it yet though! I will! Later today! :)
Quote from: Badsim on November 26, 2007, 02:38:29 AM
Have a doubt about what has been said about this NoMaxisMod ... A BSC one ? I thought it was from DuskTrooper ( which is active here from time to time ) and at Simtropolis ... ::)
There's more than one Block Maxis / No Maxis mod, Cedric! ;D
DuskTrooper's
Block All Maxis Buildings (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=16393) works by removing residential and commercial buildings from all tilesets (Chicago, NY, Houston and Euro).
The
BSC No Maxis Files (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=897) works by setting the growth stage of all lots to 255.
The latter one is the only one that is fully CAMpatible, as some of the buildings included in DT's mod would overwrite changes made to industrial and stage 8 buildings in CAM.
Well , thanks for the info , Tage ;D , when you've got something you're not searching for it anymore . ::)
I've to check this one to compare so .... :thumbsup:
SAC,
You mentioned at one point making your own CAMelots or CAMpatible lots (as lots that are made with the X-Tool are known). It is easy for a basic lot to be made from an existing model, ready for props and other textures to make it look great.
I realize that the idea of CAM and the X-Tool is probably a bit overwhelming, but I promise you that it is worth the effort.
Cheers,
Kevin
Well, if it's necessary at all. From my understanding this entire CAM-thing seems to be mostly related to those mayoring skyscraper cities, whereas I'm focusing on a European stylished one. Usually this works the opposite way compared to American cities since the closer you get to the city centre, the higher buildings, while you'll see those higher buildings in the outskirts of European cities instead, (as residential structures)! :)
So for the moment I haven't decided whether or not use the CAM-feature at all!
Quote from: FrankU on November 26, 2007, 02:45:42 AM
Ok guys, this is going out of hand now.... ;D
It's a very interesting thread and I appreciate all replies very much, but I hope you don't think bad of me if I say: this is too much work for me.
I hoped there would be some quite easy way to control growth of lots, but I know now that there is no such thing.
Of course the BSC No Maxis mod helps a bit.
Moving and removing of files is useful but I don't see how I could work with removing the lot files, but keeping the mod and desc files... It will be a mess within three days!
I'm afraid I have to live with it...
Although Andreas had a quite useful answer: renaming the lotfiles in my personal plugins folder into the four building styles available... :-[
Who knows, maybe I am going to do that.
Thanks all of you.
I have given this problem a little thought since asking for some sort of mod to tweak existing BATs/Lots to prohibited them from growing (subject of another thread). I haven't thought it through as my mind has very much be preoccupied by the RL financial markets that is kicking the crap out of my personal finances. So I will just quickly throw this out for someone else to think about. It is similar to Andreas' thought of but here goes.
We can control what style will grow in a given period in an ongoing games where previously built items do not disappear and function perfectly. If we pick a style and restricted from our game (say Houston or whatever) and allow nothing to grow from it, then when there is a building we no longer want to grow, can we not just go in and change that BAT/Lot to the restricted style until we want to use it again, then change it back. Seems there may be a minimal time consuming work around here.
Sorry for the lack of details, my minds a buzzing.
Well, in theory your idea is right, as far as I can see. And it is as clear as it can be.
But in real life this would be a heck of a problem.
Do you know how many residential Lots I do have in my plugins folder? It must be at least three hundred. And editing these all the time is a very time consuming activity. :-[ :-[
So, I am afraid I'm not going to do this.... :'(
Pity though...
Look, in my opinion all this is relatively easy. Alek king has been doing this for a long time and I use the same method and it works perfectly for me.
Most important you need DuskTrooper's Block All Maxis Buildings (http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?id=16393)
It's much easier when your city functions already and you have the demand.
You can control most building by the four different styles (Chicago, NY, Houston and Euro) and by taxes. Knowing what style your lot is, is very important.
For this I block all Maxis content, now that's out of the way.
Block three of the four styles (Chicago, NY, Houston and Euro), change the taxes (for res. or com. what ever it is you are working on) all the way up to 20% and down to 4% or lower for the wealth level you want to grow.
Example
Res$ 4%
Res$$ 20%
Res$$$ 20%
Now my pluggins folder is huge, so sometimes I get a few different buildings growing at the same time even after I do all this. This is the only time patience comes into play. It usually takes me about 15 to 20 minutes to get a few city blocks to be exactly what I want it to be.
If I don't make any sense, Alek king is a master at this and his tutorial is a must read and can be found here. (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=50.0) [LINKIE] He goes into more depth than I have.
I hope this helps as it has helped me very much.
Robin ()stsfd()
Quote from: FrankU on November 27, 2007, 05:50:08 AM
Well, in theory your idea is right, as far as I can see. And it is as clear as it can be.
But in real life this would be a heck of a problem.
Do you know how many residential Lots I do have in my plugins folder? It must be at least three hundred. And editing these all the time is a very time consuming activity. :-[ :-[
So, I am afraid I'm not going to do this.... :'(
Pity though...
You don't do it for every lot, only for those few that tend to dominate and keep growing every single time you zone or demolish for regrowth. I have many, many that never grow in favor of a few. You need to track them in some way though, to change them back at some point (maybe).
I have read many times that all lots have the same percent of chance to grow as any other (given all the other qualifiers are equal eg. demand, lot level, etc), but I don't believe this. I am not smart enough to figure it out, but, I have been looking at the names and folders in group and it seems that the dominate files are low in the alphabet (A being low). We now know in many instances the structure of the Plugins file do effect some creations/mods (this is from readin instructions as to how to name folders begining with Z, not from my personal understaning of the mechanics).
I am positive the base problem of dominating lots will eventually be solved by the gurus of the game. We will just have to wait and try various work arounds until then.
@Buckbeach...
You try to solve a different, but connected, problem.
I would like to be able to have influence on my lots so that I can grow neighbourhoods or streets with all te same lot, like rowhouses in real life. So in that case I would want to block everything but one family of lots...
Well OK, you could say that I put all my residential lots in the New Yourk group and then rename just the lots I need for the neighbourhood at hand to the Euro style. And so on...
It is possible, I guess. I'll consider it. Though Andreas' idea is most useful...
Hard to say how much work it is.
The real large problem rises when I want to develop several cities at the same time. In one city I want the Gascooker suburbs, in the other I want Simgoobers or Haarlemmergolds lots.... Then it will be a lot of renaming that eventually ends in a mess... This looks more like datatyping than like playing a game, and that was not my objective when I bought the CD. :P
Quote from: FrankU on November 27, 2007, 07:25:40 AM
@Buckbeach...
You try to solve a different, but connected, problem.
I would like to be able to have influence on my lots so that I can grow neighbourhoods or streets with all te same lot, like rowhouses in real life. So in that case I would want to block everything but one family of lots...
Well OK, you could say that I put all my residential lots in the New Yourk group and then rename just the lots I need for the neighbourhood at hand to the Euro style. And so on...
It is possible, I guess. I'll consider it. Though Andreas' idea is most useful...
Hard to say how much work it is.
The real large problem rises when I want to develop several cities at the same time. In one city I want the Gascooker suburbs, in the other I want Simgoobers or Haarlemmergolds lots.... Then it will be a lot of renaming that eventually ends in a mess... This looks more like datatyping than like playing a game, and that was not my objective when I bought the CD. :P
I think I have seen a couple of tools that facilitate separtate content Plugins or menus, but I find it more than a challange to work on one city at a time. Too old and slow learner at this stage.
Hmm, i think i might share my tips and tricks too, i use a Maxis blocker(any maxis buildings i want i will relot anyway) for starters.
Rasing taxes of wealthlevels undesierable is great!
Add some time and you will get nice even and nice looking areas, this to has been said before.
I know that everyone seems to think that Residential Plops dont work, however, i have figuerd out(with the help of Owen) that plopping R$ buildings with buggis extra cheat .dll works perfectly fine, no abandonment(well unless the area you plopped it in dosnt have the required conditions(water and power basicly)). might be good to know.
Personally im just waiting for the X-Tool to go public(as it hasnt as far as im aware?), then i will probably go over every growable to fix them up to standard and sort them out in some way, most likley making residentials i want to plop R$ and those i want to grow R$$ or R$$$(which will be mostly low-density housing for villages and outskirts).
I build European Cities too, or rather A European city, closly inspired by eastern european(ex-commie) cities during their commietimes. which means a lot of identical buildings, both in the centre and for the suburbs and even for the low-density areas too.
Quote from: Xiziz on November 27, 2007, 08:59:53 AM
I know that everyone seems to think that Residential Plops dont work, however, i have figuerd out(with the help of Owen) that plopping R$ buildings with buggis extra cheat .dll works perfectly fine, no abandonment(well unless the area you plopped it in dosnt have the required conditions(water and power basicly)). might be good to know.
Perfectly right ! It's amazing how certain legends seem to be indestructrible !! $%Grinno$%
Residential & industrial plopped Lots work when they are plopped on already existing ones . The only thing which doesn't work is the commute time query , from that lot of people said that inhabitants of these residences can't go away their homes to find a job . That's not as simple as that , I think so because these Lots aren't abandoned , their number of inhabitants is counted in the global population of the city and they influence visibly and permanently on the RCI demand ...
Here a residential & an insdustrial example from my city , these plopped Lots are among the first present in AntigOne , in game time since 135 years ....
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg260.imageshack.us%2Fimg260%2F685%2Fresidentialtn5.jpg&hash=e5511e7fd5877f7f8a841120fd4571b9eb57b40b)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg260.imageshack.us%2Fimg260%2F5580%2Findustrialce6.jpg&hash=9b22f858078f8c90bc523ba227d1a2465eb6e09a)
I think this question about plopped residences or industries has never been totally studied ... at least I don't know a such thread .So what I'm showing here are observations ... ::)
You wrote "Residential & industrial plopped Lots work when they are plopped on already existing ones . The only thing which doesn't work is the commute time query , from that lot of people said that inhabitants of these residences can't go away their homes to find a job . That's not as simple as that , I think so because these Lots aren't abandoned , their number of inhabitants is counted in the global population of the city and they influence visibly and permanently on the RCI demand ... "
Even before the cheat mode, I found that you could in fact keep the residents from disappearing, albeit as mentioned, they did not go to work. So I rationalized, they represented other occupations and non-working people (some civil workers, retired, welfare recipients, etc) and you can control where you want these to live and in the type of structure. There are still problems. They don't use the school and health facilities and , I think, they don't pay taxes.
Thanks buckbeach for these useful precisions . As I said , what I'm telling about so far is personal observations ... as I've got only a few plopped residential and industrial Lots among growing ones , I wouldn't have been able to tell you who is using schools and health facilities , who don't ...
In the same way I'm guessing these inhabitants don't generate crime and garbage . At least there's a certain logical for they don't pay taxes . :D
More seriously I hope that others informations will come as well so we can make our own opinion about the inconveniences and advantages of plopped Lots , so each of us will be able to say " I can live with" , or not ...
Personally , so far , I can . But , these Lots having been created more than 2 years ago , I would be now totally able to make them growable ....
Quote from: Badsim on November 28, 2007, 06:31:45 AM
Thanks buckbeach for these useful precisions . As I said , what I'm telling about so far is personal observations ... as I've got only a few plopped residential and industrial Lots among growing ones , I wouldn't have been able to tell you who is using schools and health facilities , who don't ...
In the same way I'm guessing these inhabitants don't generate crime and garbage . At least there's a certain logical for they don't pay taxes . :D
More seriously I hope that others informations will come as well so we can make our own opinion about the inconveniences and advantages of plopped Lots , so each of us will be able to say " I can live with" , or not ...
Personally , so far , I can . But , these Lots having been created more than 2 years ago , I would be now totally able to make them growable ....
Set up a simple test city and let it run a couple of years. Let it populate with growing residents. Stop the game and check your resident taxes. Then replace all the growing lots with plop residents and let it run for several months. Then place a known good school and health clinic (I say good because a few older ones didn't function) close by and let the game run a couple of more months. This test is not complicate and sets up pretty fast. Check your taxes to see if they changed. think you will see what I previously reported is correct and that there are no students and no sick senior citizens.
I see this thread is very informative! :thumbsup:
But... maybe it would be good to formulate some conclusions?
Ploppable residentials are a side theme here, but it's important. So I would like to ask, what in fact is better to do with ploppable residentials (for example from Paris set)? To leave them as they are (we can block the dilapidation, but I don't know how dangerous for the simulation are effects you described), or rather to make them landmarks, or make them growable and control like other growables?
And - what is the sense of making ploppable residentials knowing what you explained here?
Obviously Adam , the best way is growable . Simply I have read so many time this terse reply : "That doesn't work ! "
Quote from: Ennedi on November 28, 2007, 07:06:38 AM
And - what is the sense of making ploppable residentials knowing what you explained here?
What
was the sense , for my concern ... the same than for FranckU which has opened the thread . I never have seen the "Complexe Monappart " ( which has maybe different nanes for each country as in french this name is a pun ) , and which is one of the best orignal Maxis residence ( so no question to use any NoMAXISMod ...) grow naturally . That's a vaste debat , Adam , depending of the purpose and the level of each player ... compromise with the game purpose and requirements . That's a game after all , need to be fun surely more than academic when we start to play with .
I've never replied to SAC ; Plop them ! ... we know both that this period of innocence is ended now .... ;D
I wanted to make this a separate post from my last one to make sure it gets ATTENTION.
I ran a very quick test as I suggested and discovered that I WAS ALL WET. Clinics and schools do attract at least some students and patients. Additionally, taxes are generated in accordance with the Wealth Level of the occupant lot plopped The taxes collected are way excessive and this could be a game killer..
A further more lengthy test is needed but I WANTED to report my error.
Sorry for the confusion,
NOTE I REPLACED EVERY GROWING LOT WITH THOSE PLOPS.
In the past, Wouanagaine and I have entertained this idea about controlling growable buildings. We have found it definately possible to certain extents by using the Zone Type and OGs (Building Styles). The biggest problem is it would differ on personal levels for everyone and the amount of work involved would be extremely too much compared to the amount of benefit.
In an experiment I made for myself well over a year ago. I changed the Zone Type for all my custom content Commercial lots. I made it so that CS grew on Light Density Commercial Zones, CO$$ grew on Medium Density and CO$$$ grew on High Density. This allowed me to zone for Commercial type rather than general Commercial.
There are ways to control this even more. You can then add building styles into the mix as a control agent. By restricting a building to a certain Building Style it is possible for you to set everything into 4 "stages". What I experimented with next was making it so the four Building Styles represented a different stage in the game. For Example:
New York = Stage 1 to 2
Chicago = Stage 3 to 4
Houston = Stage 5 to 6
Euro = Stage 7 to 8
With CAM you could set the Building Styles to cover 4 stages each.
So, by editing each Lot File and Building Description you could set it so that you can control the "Density" (Stage) and the Building Type (CS, CO$$, CO$$$, etc). This will allow you to form zone certain areas and have them grow as a suburbs or skyscrapers, R$ or R$$$. But, it is ALOT of work! Editing every Lot File to be only growable on a certain zone type and every Building Description so that it only grows in a certain building style is too much too do for such, unless there was a concensus and everyone would be happy with control to this effect. Another side effect which you will have to implement to prevent "upgrading" would be that you need to make everything historical when is grows, unless you want that section to upgrade.
The easiest way to implement something like this might be with CAM, since most CAM users will only use CAMpatible lots and not use things that are not CAMalized.
Intresting Jplumbley, becuase this is more or less exactly what i was planning on dooing to my growables when X-tool is availible for general use, aswell as CAM-ifying all my lots.
Quote from: Badsim on November 28, 2007, 07:41:21 AM
I've never replied to SAC ; Plop them ! ... we know both that this period of innocence is ended now .... ;D
Sure Badsim, I could obviously plop them, but I also want my city to function properly! ;) Although interesting topic, I believe - different ideas or not - that I'll start with the "zone-and-wait"-process for the time being. As mentioned, I don't care soo much about the way my downtown or industrial areas develop, but rather the opposite as far as residential areas concerns.
There is also another problem with the "zone-and-wait" method.It is connected with using landmarks.
Some landmark increase commercial demand or create the park effect, which have an influence on the wealth level in residential zones. So, if you want to place a particular landmark, and you want to have low or middle wealth Res buildings close to it, you can have a problem.
I think it is quite easy to solve - it's simple to change these landmark properties, but it is good to remember about it.
There are some other lots increasing the wealth level, such as BSC Parks (to be honest, I used them often to make residential zones more attractive for rich citizens :) ) But their influence radius is not very big - as I remember, about 15-20 tiles (although it can be too much for somebody).
In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?
I am sure that everyone has their own ideas... exactly as it should be.
I do have the feeling that when I start plopping buildings there will be no game anymore.
Although I use cheats, so the real challenge of building a city, trying to keep citizens content and keep financial balance is completely screwed up, I still feel that I am playing a city simulator game....
When I plop buildings like I plop parks and infrastructure I am sure I will end up plopping everything. So there will be no coincidences, I have to think of everything myself and I will never leave the day of january 3rd in the year 1.
It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.
So I wanted to have the possibility to influence some things, but leave other things to chance...
The plopping discussion always atteracts me, because it can be very rewarding to plop the city exactly as I want it (propbably some day I will build a city this way), but still, as said before, being able to influence the buildig that grows is my objective.
All of you that have answered my questions have taught me some new things and I thank you for that.
Quote from: buckbeach on November 28, 2007, 08:56:54 AM
I wanted to make this a separate post from my last one to make sure it gets ATTENTION.
I ran a very quick test as I suggested and discovered that I WAS ALL WET. Clinics and schools do attract at least some students and patients. Additionally, taxes are generated in accordance with the Wealth Level of the occupant lot plopped The taxes collected are way excessive and this could be a game killer..
A further more lengthy test is needed but I WANTED to report my error.
Sorry for the confusion,
NOTE I REPLACED EVERY GROWING LOT WITH THOSE PLOPS.
I confirm ! Have set up a city with all facilities , then replaced all growables by ploppables ... have let this city run for 100 years with a population of 6600 inhabitants (a lot more than with the previous growables ) , no dilapidation/abandonment , school ( and a college ) and health facility normally used ( with the corresponding use increase due to the population increase ) , they pay taxes and generate crime ( the police station is used with arrestations ) . The only thing they don't seem to generate is garbage ...
Interesting , isn't it ? ;D :P
@
SAC , no misunderstanding ; I didn't reply you "Plop them" , oppsositely I was replying to others that I have never replied you to plop them . :-[
That said ... it seems so far that the only thing which doesn't work surely is the commute time query , in others words they don't work "visibly" for the player , but the game engine see them ... ::)
Badsim, does this work with R$, R$$ and R$$$?
And does it work with Industry as well?
Somehow it always seemed to have worked for Commercial?
When you experiment further, and find your answers, maybe it's time for a new tutorial about this?
I think this will be interesting for everyone on this site.
Yes, I keep on experiment this ... these's a few things that I don't understand . In that city I've plopped commercial Lots too . To verify , I've destroy all residences ... with 0 inhabitants , school , health facility and police station are unused again as expected , but the commercial Lots are still employing people !
I'll give some news when I'll have some ...
Quote from: FrankU on November 29, 2007, 05:22:04 AM
In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?
I am sure that everyone has their own ideas... exactly as it should be.
I do have the feeling that when I start plopping buildings there will be no game anymore.
Although I use cheats, so the real challenge of building a city, trying to keep citizens content and keep financial balance is completely screwed up, I still feel that I am playing a city simulator game....
When I plop buildings like I plop parks and infrastructure I am sure I will end up plopping everything. So there will be no coincidences, I have to think of everything myself and I will never leave the day of january 3rd in the year 1.
It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.
So I wanted to have the possibility to influence some things, but leave other things to chance...
The plopping discussion always atteracts me, because it can be very rewarding to plop the city exactly as I want it (propbably some day I will build a city this way), but still, as said before, being able to influence the buildig that grows is my objective.
All of you that have answered my questions have taught me some new things and I thank you for that.
You of course are correct. I find the controlling of the growables and the ability to use plopables work toward the same goal. We are (I think) trying to get a city that looks the way we would each like to have it look. For me I want it to function somewhat as intended as opposed to the sandbox eye candy quasi Lego puzzle. Not criticizing that but I like the game aspect. I too use the cheats and really try to rationalize where I can.
Thank you for start the thread and keeping the spirit alive.
Quote from: Badsim on November 29, 2007, 05:57:10 AM
Yes, I keep on experiment this ... these's a few things that I don't understand . In that city I've plopped commercial Lots too . To verify , I've destroy all residences ... with 0 inhabitants , school , health facility and police station are unused again as expected , but the commercial Lots are still employing people !
I'll give some news when I'll have some ...
Did you also find that the tax income was excessive?
One other thing that I noticed is that, although it doesn't show, the plopped residents are going to work. I have no connections to other cities but there is still a sufficient workforce for the local economy. It also seems like every person in every household goes to work. When I look at the regional view the population and the commercial/industrial workers are almost equal as opposed to the stay at home portion of the residents in a normal game. This could be the cause for the aforementioned tax issue.
I have even considered to edit all the downloaded lots so that the values fit into the values of Maxis' original lots. But first: I am too lazy to do it and second: I am too lazy to play the game this hard way. So I play more or less cheating.
Well, some things cannot be achieved by playing like Maxis intended. Last month I started a new region and begun by laying down all primary railways and highways into it. This consumes so much money that you can't really start a city after this has been done. So at least I needed some income to cover the expenses of the infrastructure while it is not yet being used....
I thought of making a Lot that gives me money in a controllable way: I thought if a powerplant costs me money to make energy, I perhaps could build a powerplant that costs me a negative amount of money i.e. gives me money in exchange for energy. So I built one producing 1 MW, and costing me §-10.000,-. But it did not work... Maybe this is a nice idea for a more experienced batter or lotter?
So I planted my one million § park and ran my city for one month.
And the plopping debate becomes more interesting every minute......
Now will you all stop posting? I have some work to do here! :D
Quote from: buckbeach on November 29, 2007, 06:13:00 AM
Did you also find that the tax income was excessive?
Well , I don't get any tax rate schedule to compare my result ...473$ for 6439 R$$ taxed at 7% ...
Quote from: FrankU on November 29, 2007, 06:21:10 AM
Well, some things cannot be achieved by playing like Maxis intended. Last month I started a new region and begun by laying down all primary railways and highways into it. This consumes so much money that you can't really start a city after this has been done. So at least I needed some income to cover the expenses of the infrastructure while it is not yet being used....
I thought of making a Lot that gives me money in a controllable way: I thought if a powerplant costs me money to make energy, I perhaps could build a powerplant that costs me a negative amount of money i.e. gives me money in exchange for energy. So I built one producing 1 MW, and costing me §-10.000,-. But it did not work... Maybe this is a nice idea for a more experienced batter or lotter?
So I planted my one million § park and ran my city for one month.
And the plopping debate becomes more interesting every minute......
Now will you all stop posting? I have some work to do here! :D
As I said before, I rationalize. Initial highways and RR are subsidized by the Big Brother govt in my games (depending on the wind). The infrastructure in place help make the town look better at the beginning. I rarely get beyond the town level as my style and interest draws to a close after the Small Town stage. I like to start out hard and the use the old Money Gazebo that give $25M a click. I also use several other quasi cheat mods (hows that for fudging) to facilitate growth, jobs and the economy.
The ploppable issue really deserves its own thread, but, don't want to break the flow of information.
Now back to work. The luxury of playing all the time is left to old moldy retired persons such as myself (and the rich).
Wow, did this thread grow while I was gone for 24 hours... :)
Quote from: FrankU on November 29, 2007, 05:22:04 AM
In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?
It did become that to a large extent, and to explain why I think it's a bad idea, I'll show an example with (lots of) images.
Why we should refrain from plopping functional landmarksThe city shown below is from a region with just two equally sized, very small towns:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg507.imageshack.us%2Fimg507%2F6646%2Fdontplopsmallcity01bb4.jpg&hash=055592f019a54f3042a5c76ed45a60e3d0e1ae73)
This city, as well as its neighbour, has a well balanced supply and demand of work and residential homes.
The reported regional residential capacity is 564, and there is a demand for almost every RCI type.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg408.imageshack.us%2Fimg408%2F5788%2Fdontplopsmallcity02li1.jpg&hash=8fb46fef623fc22236dab92aa006fe205866817d)
Now, let's say the mayor of this town decided he wanted to speed up its development.
He knows nothing about the simulation of real life, but that cannot be that important...
He is very much interested in being able to say when and where a skyscraper should be built though...
Thus, he calls for some extra moolah, picks a site and plops a tower:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg524.imageshack.us%2Fimg524%2F86%2Fdontplopsmallcity03vb7.jpg&hash=058a906c02a1206ec86c4a5a1938a84a877dd417)
Despite its size, this tower only has slightly above 1,000 jobs, but hey, we need it for the eye-candy effect!
And let's not exaggerate the town's expansion...
Two months after the mayor plopped his tower, the Census Repository is reporting 1,126 CO§§§ jobs in the city.
They also report a massive negative demand for further CO§§§, but that was expected...
And the mayor is particularly satisfied to see an increase in the residential demand, especially R§§.
Maybe this little town could see some highrises already...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg524.imageshack.us%2Fimg524%2F6020%2Fdontplopsmallcity04ls1.jpg&hash=c724d4fe7d55b9b18a53a1d3ccbbca9bacfa9840)
Knowing nothing about real life (simulation), he thought he would soon get stage 8 residentials.
Even if only stage 1 houses have appeared so far...
One month later he gets an annoying call from the Census Repository.
People have started to commute into town from elsewhere, 866 in just one month.
And where are they coming from? There isn't enough workforce in the region to explain the commuters coming to us...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg187.imageshack.us%2Fimg187%2F3962%2Fdontplopsmallcity06um7.jpg&hash=9b65de80bfc8f131d885a4e65f336fc63dc144ed)
And hey, they aren't even working in our town... 540 of them are commuting out of town for work...
Yet another month later the situation has escalated...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg144.imageshack.us%2Fimg144%2F236%2Fdontplopsmallcity07ph3.jpg&hash=88a38399d214ffa340582eac6b76d6aa2eb52256)
Another two months later the situation seems to have stabilized, but the mayor wonders if he should be happy.
The population of his town has grown slightly, and there are lots of vacant jobs:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg100.imageshack.us%2Fimg100%2F3589%2Fdontplopsmallcity09jo9.jpg&hash=ff6843186f877dae7d65f10673b5b6d784bf2503)
However, due to his plopping, the regional capacity is now reported to be above 4,000.
That is an imaginary figure though, the real capacity is still about 600, nothing has happened to the neighbouring town...
The reported regional residential capacity is now more than 40% of the long-term regional demand of 9,395. It used to be about 16%...
Plop a bigger tower, and soon there will be enough imaginary residents in the region to halt development alltogether.
Besides, the number of commuters is beahaving irrationally...
There are now 1,749 commuters coming into town and 2,236 going out of town.
But the local workforce is still only 142. Are those commuters breeding?
Now, the mayor got a bit nervous... with thousands of commuter going through his town...
Surely the traffic situation must be horrible now, hope I can still be able to cruise around my quiet neighbourhood.
Looking at the traffic report he was perplexed though:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg407.imageshack.us%2Fimg407%2F8209%2Fdontplopsmallcity10qp1.jpg&hash=287f8df1c2f7b29638272e70a122d8c62fd9554b)
There are
no commuters going through his town, the only traffic across the border are a few freight trucks.
There are only 42 workers in the tower with a current capacity of 1,044.
All those commuters that plopping the tower added are imaginary and eternal.
They have exactly the same effect on the demand simulators as the eternal commute circles around city corners.
Now, this does not mean that you cannot plop functional landmarks in the game.
However, you need to be sure there is a demand for the building you're plopping. ;)
Ploppable commercial towers should be rewards, available only if the actual demand is larger than its capacity. ::)
Ploppable ResidentialsRegarding ploppable residentials, I would ask you to consider this:
The residential capacity reported is depending on desirability factors.
If desirability goes down, and the actual capacity drops below 50%, the building will dilapidate or become abandoned.
The biggest residential desirability factor is the employment. If people can't get employed they usually leave as soon as possible.
Desirability can be increased through other factors, e.g. education, health, land value, park effect, lack of crime, etc.
If you're able to compensate the negative effect of unemployment by these factors, you obviously are able to plop residentials.
Likewise, freight time is a desirability factor for industrials, but not as severe as the unemployment for residentials.
Thus, plopped industrials have a lot better chance of surviving.
For a plopped residential not to abandon right away, the desirability factors must be right when plopping.
That is the reason you have to plop them on top of an existing residential building with a good existing employment.
Quote from: FrankU on November 29, 2007, 05:22:04 AM
It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.
SC4 is a simulating game above anything else.
Whenever we want to control it and start plopping buildings, we are sidestepping the formulas for the simulation.
TaxationQuote from: Badsim on November 29, 2007, 06:53:20 AM
Well , I don't get any tax rate schedule to compare my result ...473$ for 6439 R$$ taxed at 7% ...
Regardless of whether a building has grown or been plopped, neither the capacity,
nor the actual number of people working/living in a building or city has anything to do with taxation.
Taxation is only a function of the tax rate and the value set in the building's property "Building Value".
Thanks for the detailed explanation, RippleJet. I remember the effect you described from the very first ploppables with jobs, namely the World Trade Center by rubik3. Due to its high number of CO-§§§ jobs, it really acted like a cheat, skewing the entire demand simulator and basically trashing the whole region if it wasn't ready to support such a behemoth. As you said, moderate plopping might work if the plopped buildings work in line with the stats, but inexperienced players will run into problems. If someone just wants to build an eyecandy city, plopping is certainly a good alternative to bulldozing unwanted buildings and waiting for the right one to grow. But for those who want to play the game as it was intended by the simulation engine, it's not really an alternative.
&apls &apls &apls &apls Excellent information, even if you did bust my bubble of thinking plopping Commercials was the best thing since sliced bread. I had already decided against any plop Residentials and except for a "Theme City" (lumber, mining, or such) I don't like plop Industrials.
I'm still to dumb to understand the tax base issue. Can't figure out why in my test, residential tax incomes went so sky high. But no matter, as I said I'm not crazy about using ploppables.
So I am back to my original dilemma of not being able to control the growables, especially the Commercials. Ancient Society put out a great package of early growth commercials but the same ones grow every time. Oh well maybe someday.
BTW where can I get that neat tool you have and are there instructions as to how to use it.
Now going back and re-read your post.
Quote from: buckbeach on November 30, 2007, 04:11:37 AM
I'm still to dumb to understand the tax base issue. Can't figure out why in my test, residential tax incomes went so sky high. But no matter, as I said I'm not crazy about using ploppables.
Did you use Buggi's cheat code to plop the same growable buildings, or did you plop separate landmark versions of the buildings?
If they were separate buildings, they probably did not have the same building value as the growable counterpart.
Quote from: buckbeach on November 30, 2007, 04:11:37 AM
BTW where can I get that neat tool you have and are there instructions as to how to use it.
It's attached to this post:
Census Repository Facility, Version 2 (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=41&threadid=84816&enterthread=y)
Be sure to read through that post completely before downloading version 2 which is attached at the very end of it.
Quote from: RippleJet on November 30, 2007, 05:03:23 AM
Did you use Buggi's cheat code to plop the same growable buildings, or did you plop separate landmark versions of the buildings?
If they were separate buildings, they probably did not have the same building value as the growable counterpart.
No I didn't use Buggi's cheat code and I know for sure that several of my favorite earlier Commercials are Landmarks, Havoc Baby Chicks (and others), Nexis used Lumber, Small Lumber mill, Ma Country Cabins etc. (Please excuse if these names aren't correct.
I'll have to learn how to use your tool and see if the there is any major impact with these.
Quote from: RippleJet on November 29, 2007, 05:21:59 PM
For a plopped residential not to abandon right away, the desirability factors must be right when plopping.
That is the reason you have to plop them on top of an existing residential building with a good existing employment.
SC4 is a simulating game above anything else.
Whenever we want to control it and start plopping buildings, we are sidestepping the formulas for the simulation.
I have two questions:
1. I am a bit confused now. I asked for plopping on the top of existing buildings on the first page of this thread
Quote1. If I will plop a growable residential building using Extra Cheats Plugin (first I zone the area, then appear a growable building, I bulldoze it and replace by other building from the same wealth group), will it work properly or not?
And received an answer from wouanagaine:
Quote@Ennedi,
1.it will work for a short period of time, and you'll have the original building commuter, but at the end, it will dilapidate, there was a thread about that experiment on ST, don't have a link.
And now, if I understand RippleJet right, it seems I can plop growables using the Extra Cheat plugin without dilapidation, if I have good desirability factors. What is right, maybe there is any misunderstanding here?
2. Let's say I zoned a residential area for a planned building, I have proper desirability factors and the growable building appeared. Now I want to replace it by another growable using the cheat plugin. Which parameters must I take care about:
- the wealth level
- the number of residents (?)
and what else?
Quote from: Ennedi on November 30, 2007, 10:09:21 AM
And now, if I understand RippleJet right, it seems I can plop growables using the Extra Cheat plugin without dilapidation, if I have good desirability factors. What is right, maybe there is any misunderstanding here?
First of all, even if the desirability is high, the chances are slim that you will get any occupancy in the residential building when you plop it.
Secondly, if you do manage to get an occupancy in it, the chances are still very slim that it would stay occupied for any longer period.
My experience is that it isn't worth the hassle to try to keep the desirability factors high enough for a building where unemployed people live.
Once you for some reason have managed to get a reduced desirability in the area (increased traffic, pollution, crime, etc.),
the building would become abandoned. And once it has abandoned it will never, ever become reoccupied.
Thus, knowing this, I have always said, and will always continue to say, that plopped residentials do not work.
Most people elsewhere wouldn't understand the more subtle explanation given here. ;)
OK Tage, I understand ;)
So, looking back at this thread, it seems that Andreas' method explained on the first page (grouping growable non-Maxis buildings in different styles) looks the most efficient one. Four building sets in one city isn't bad (I say four in one city, because I have different plugin folders for different cities, not as much as cities - in Shosaloza I will have 4 or 5 plugin folders instead of 16)
And the amount of work... in fact, changing the style in 100 buildings can need the same time as lot editing of one or a few buildings :D
But I still have a few questions, maybe a little "off-topic" ;)
1. You said on the first page:
QuoteBuildings that are properly modded (with the "X Tool") should all have exactly the same chance of growing.
The variance in the approximation is very wide though, so sometimes it might look as the game is favouring a particular building.
I don't use CAM - I want to have it in the next region, but earlier I want to learn some other things. But as I know, residential buildings were made CAMpatible using the X Tool. Can I use these buildings in non-CAM cities (of course these of them which grow in Maxis stages)? Can it improve the simulation's work and equalize the chance to appear particular buildings? (I think about the situation when I have No Maxis mod installed and use the particular set of buildings)
2. What about making buildings historical and blocking dilapidation? We know conditions in the particular area can change when the city grows. When the simulation "wants" to replace these buildings by others from the next stage, but it's impossible because of making existing ones historical, or when conditions become worse - but we don't see it because of blocking dilapidation - can it affect the simulation and in which way?
Quote from: Ennedi on November 30, 2007, 11:46:34 AM
1. I don't use CAM - I want to have it in the next region, but earlier I want to learn some other things. But as I know, residential buildings were made CAMpatible using the X Tool. Can I use these buildings in non-CAM cities (of course these of them which grow in Maxis stages)? Can it improve the simulation's work and equalize the chance to appear particular buildings? (I think about the situation when I have No Maxis mod installed and use the particular set of buildings)
Yes, on both accounts! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Ennedi on November 30, 2007, 11:46:34 AM
2. What about making buildings historical and blocking dilapidation? We know conditions in the particular area can change when the city grows. When the simulation "wants" to replace these buildings by others from the next stage, but it's impossible because of making existing ones historical, or when conditions become worse - but we don't see it because of blocking dilapidation - can it affect the simulation and in which way?
Making (a few) houses historical wouldn't normally to any significant degree affect the simulation.
Which dilapidation mod are you using?
So if I have understood everything alright so far, the simulator isn't capable of properly handling C&I plopables (I don't want to talk about residentials cause i have never used them before). Every plopped job screws demand and other simulated values to a certain degree. On top of that plopped industrials don't produce anything (at least no freight trucks are leaving). But what about all of these beautiful rewards that comes with jobs. Most of them only provide a handful of jobs, so is it right to assume that the simulator is able to manage these? Or should I better mod them to pure landmarks if I want to maintain stable parameters for the simulator? When I think about it, I guess it would be ok to leave them with jobs, schools and other public buildings always came with jobs too (or is the disturbance so small that no one ever bothered about it?).
Quote from: RippleJet on November 30, 2007, 12:07:24 PM
Which dilapidation mod are you using?
I'm using AbandonmentModd v1_2 from ST (Plugin_No_Dilapidation + Plugin_180_Year_Abandonment_Modd).
bblubb questions are interesting for me too. Maybe I ask for too much ;), but Tage, would you like to say what is your opinion about the most proper and effective way (from the simulation point of view) of using ploppable industrials and commercials?
Quote from: bblubb on November 30, 2007, 12:37:45 PM
So if I have understood everything alright so far, the simulator isn't capable of properly handling C&I plopables (I don't want to talk about residentials cause i have never used them before). Every plopped job screws demand and other simulated values to a certain degree. On top of that plopped industrials don't produce anything (at least no freight trucks are leaving).
The simulator is fully capable of handling a plopped commercial and even a plopped industrial, if there is a demand for the type of RCI they represent.
The effect in that case is the same as if a similar building would grow, it satisfied a demand for capacity that exists.
Thus, if you want to plop a skyscraper providing 5,000 CO§§§ jobs, make sure you do have a demand for CO§§§ at that level.
Quote from: bblubb on November 30, 2007, 12:37:45 PM
But what about all of these beautiful rewards that comes with jobs. Most of them only provide a handful of jobs, so is it right to assume that the simulator is able to manage these? Or should I better mod them to pure landmarks if I want to maintain stable parameters for the simulator? When I think about it, I guess it would be ok to leave them with jobs, schools and other public buildings always came with jobs too (or is the disturbance so small that no one ever bothered about it?).
None of the in-game rewards satisfies demand for any RCI capacity, they provide civic jobs. Civic jobs are handled in a different way.
Each in-game building that provides civic jobs, gives the same amount of amenities as well, or in other words, residential CAP relief.
Thus they allow the same increase in demand for residential capacity as they provide jobs, and won't affect the RCI simulators at all.
Quote from: Ennedi on November 30, 2007, 01:04:44 PM
I'm using AbandonmentModd v1_2 from ST (Plugin_No_Dilapidation + Plugin_180_Year_Abandonment_Modd).
Yes, both the No Abandonment Mod and the No Dilapidation Mod will affect the simulator.
To what degree depends on how your city would develop without the mod(s) installed.
A lot can always upgrade to higher wealth (there is a property to block this, but it has never been changed in a mod).
However, dilapidation and/or abandonment is the only way to allow the wealth of a lot to downgrade to a lower wealth.
If you provide enough low-wealth housing and jobs elsewhere, you can get away with minimum impact on the demand simulators.
Quote from: RippleJet on November 30, 2007, 01:32:00 PM
However, dilapidation and/or abandonment is the only way to allow the wealth of a lot to downgrade to a lower wealth.
Does this mean then that the lot will redevelop with a lower stage building on it after it has dilapidated/abandonded?
Fasinating thread and some excellent information gained :thumbsup:
:satisfied:
TTC
Quote from: TheTeaCat on November 30, 2007, 01:51:34 PM
Does this mean then that the lot will redevelop with a lower stage building on it after it has dilapidated/abandonded?
No, if a §§§ lot has dilapidated getting §§ occupancy, then the lot can be upgraded to a higher stage §§ lot.
And yes, an abandoned lot is essentially unbuilt, and cen redevelop into stage 1 if needed.
thank you for your quick reply.
Quote from: RippleJet on November 30, 2007, 01:14:02 PM
None of the in-game rewards satisfies demand for any RCI capacity, they provide civic jobs. Civic jobs are handled in a different way.
Each in-game building that provides civic jobs, gives the same amount of amenities as well, or in other words, residential CAP relief.
Thus they allow the same increase in demand for residential capacity as they provide jobs, and won't affect the RCI simulators at all.
I didn't know of the existence of these "civic jobs". This thread doesn't stop to get more interesting all the time. I have already learned a lot of new things. Am I safe to assume that the custom made civic lots (if well modeled) work the same way?
Quote from: RippleJet on November 30, 2007, 01:14:02 PM
The simulator is fully capable of handling a plopped commercial and even a plopped industrial, if there is a demand for the type of RCI they represent. The effect in that case is the same as if a similar building would grow, it satisfied a demand for capacity that exists.
Thus, if you want to plop a skyscraper providing 5,000 CO§§§ jobs, make sure you do have a demand for CO§§§ at that level.
So I simply have to check demand everytime before plopping a commercial or industrial building (as well as any non-civic custom made reward with jobs). I can live with that. The only "unnatural" issue remaining would be that plopped industrials won't produce freight. But fright only creates traffic as far as I know. Or is there any other hidden meaning to it?
EDITED
well, I just finished writing this when I noticed that this idea has been recently discussed in this (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2924.0) thread. So just forget it....
-----
This post has more to do with the original intention of this thread. So I separated it from my last reply.
I usually play with the BSC NoMaxis Mod. But in my last city I wanted to create a small patch of Maxis $-Industries. So I temporarily removed the appropriate file from my plugin folder and immediately after starting my city again, the Maxis Lots started to grow like weeds. When everything had grown as I wanted I saved my city, quited the game and took the removed file back into my plugin folder. I restarted the game and reentered my City. The Maxis building seemed to work fine. They produced freight, and people got there to work. I let the game run for many years. Although I still had a very high I-D demand none of the Maxis lots developed into a higher stage lot. I guess this depends on them now being recognized by the game as Stage 256? I really don't know if detecting stage 256 lots is irritating the simulator in any way, but I've never noticed anything to suspect this.
But to come back to the topic I think that it would be possible to make similar blocker files (changing the growth stage to 256) for different Sets of Lots. For example one for all the mediterranean style lots, one for the SHUR project lots, the BSP.....
This probably has a few advantages over editing or moving the original lots around all the time. First, you just have to do this once for every set you want to use (and eventually prevent from growing). Second, once created these files are very easy to manage. Third, no empty lots in game while trying (and afterwards) to grow from a specific set.
Of course there are also some downsides. This is nothing compared to new tilesets for example. You have to create such a file for every set/lot you want to prevent from growing and you have to restart the game to switch between different sets. On the whole this attempt isn't so much about deciding what to grow but more about what not to grow. But what do you think of the idea? Anything I have overseen?
Quote from: bblubb on November 30, 2007, 03:58:22 PM
I didn't know of the existence of these "civic jobs". This thread doesn't stop to get more interesting all the time. I have already learned a lot of new things. Am I safe to assume that the custom made civic lots (if well modeled) work the same way?
If they are well modded, yes.
However, there are civic buildings out there that provide civic jobs without providing amenities.
The impact of them is in no way severe though, since residential CAP relief can be provided in many ways (e.g. parks).
Quote from: bblubb on November 30, 2007, 03:58:22 PM
So I simply have to check demand everytime before plopping a commercial or industrial building (as well as any non-civic custom made reward with jobs). I can live with that. The only "unnatural" issue remaining would be that plopped industrials won't produce freight. But fright only creates traffic as far as I know. Or is there any other hidden meaning to it?
Yes, there is another meaning with freight.
Each freight trip out of town provides an industrial CAP relief of 20.
However, also in this case can you find other means of providing industrial CAP relief.
Quote from: bblubb on November 30, 2007, 04:52:27 PM
Although I still had a very high I-D demand none of the Maxis lots developed into a higher stage lot. I guess this depends on them now being recognized by the game as Stage 256? I really don't know if detecting stage 256 lots is irritating the simulator in any way, but I've never noticed anything to suspect this.
Yes, this has been acknowledged, and the BSC No Maxis File mod will be updated. :thumbsup:
The upgrade will use another lotconfig property to block them from growing, and leave the growth stage unchanged.
That will allow them to upgrade even if blocked from growing. :)
Well after having thought about it, and having found out that my new cities are really overwhelmed by Haarlemmergold's Dutch files (beautiful, but it is just too much!), I am considering to edit my residentials the way Andreas advised me in his first reply. Which means: editing them into the four building styles.
But... How do I do this?
I opened some files in LE prop, but that doesn't work. If I open Ilive's reader, where do I have to look and what entry do I need to edit?
FrankU:
I belive you have to use ilives reader to do this, dont think le-prop has the necisary buttons.
The property you want to change is in the "occupant group" part of the exemplar in the *.sc4desc file, its not in the *.sc4lot file by nature(some modders put the sc4 descfile there i belive, or in a dat with the model).
Add, replace or remove so that only the tileset you want is still included, many coustom bats have all four added from the start, then its just to remove the three you dont want(dont touch the other numbers though, there related to how the game sees and grows the building, and what wealth it is)
0x00002000 - Chicago
0x00002001 - New York
0x00002002 - Huston
0x00002003 - Euro
And the obligatory picture to help explain :)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg149.imageshack.us%2Fimg149%2F7527%2Fdescun7.png&hash=b795d44866a09afa665e9468ef01454e54f4dea1)
If you're not used to using a hex editor, you'd probably find SC4Tool (http://kurier.simcityplaza.de/details.php?file=315) easier to use! ::)
Well, as already mentioned, both the Reader and SC4Tool should work fine for this task. Since it's quite a huge task after all, maybe you could make it even more thoroughly - create a proper mod. ;) What I suggest is that you use exactly the steps that Xiziz described, but not in the original files, but in a copy of the relevant exemplar files. Open the SC4Desc files (or the SC4Lot files, if there isn't an SC4Desc file), find the building exemplar file (the one that carries the occupant group properties), and copy them into an empty DAT file.
The best way to do this is to open a second instace of the Reader, and paste the exemplar files into the "blank.dat" that is opened by default. So go to the original file, right-click the building exemplar file and select "Copy file(s)", then go to your second Reader instance, right-click again and select "Paste file(s)". Do this with all of Haarlemmergold's (for instance) buildings, then edit them as described above. Finally, save the exemplar file collection as a new DAT file. You can now put this in a subfolder that starts with a "z_", so it will be loaded last, overriding the original values. I'm sure there are quite a few people who like to have such a mod as well. :)