Rosebarb- Odd Behavior?

[SC4BOY]

I have the "rosebarb" reward in one of my cities.. nothing unusual there

As the area developed, I added a zoned area adjacent to the Rosebarb lot

The "zone" layout.. of course the Rosebarb area is "none zoned"


The lots (zoned C and Rosebarb together) Note that the zoned area looks like a "parking lot" or maybe an "entrance" or whatever rather than a building or standard growable lot.


If I click either one.. the C-zone OR the Rosebarb lot, I get the same query window


The C-Zone looks almost like the evil "growable empty lot" problem as exhibited in the Growable Landmark Thread

Is this normal behavior? I've never seen it before, so thought I'd ask.

Thanks

[spa]

Looks like you're missing a prop pack. Whatever prop pack it is would have some buildings as props that would likely go on these blank spots. Check the readmes and make sure you have all the dependencies.

[SC4BOY]

Rosebarb, as I understand it, is NOT a growable.. perhaps I don't understand it. I have all props unless there is some issue, as I say, that I don't understand. Rosebarb is a reward lot/farm and THAT IS IT (the lot with the building with what looks like a blue roof), complete and no missing dependencies, right next to the "odd lot"

[xxdita]

Seems like it probably is a case of an empty lot growing. Not sure why it's showing the Rosebarb query though. Have you tried scanning for Empty Lots using Cleanitol lately? If it's not on there, I'd think it's another Japanese lot created using the Blank RCI Set.

[RippleJet]

Thanks SC4BOY for pointing me here!
The 3x2 commercial lot does indeed look like a landmark that has grown on an empty lot.

The Rosebarb is not a landmark growing on an empty lot though. At least not the version that is on the LEX.
Could the one you have be an older one downloaded from STEX?

There could also be another reason why the same query would appear for both lots.
That happens if either of them has the immortal lot syndrome.

The immortal lot syndrome is caused by the building being placed too close to the edge of the lot,
so that either that lot or the neighbouring lot gets the query for the neighbouring lot.

That would also mean that you would not be able to successfully delete the lots.
Could you test to see if you are able to delete those two lots?

At least the LEX version of Rosebarb is not suffering from the immortal lot syndrome.
However, once again, maybe you have an older version?

It wouldn't be the landmark that has grown on an empty lot though,
since that one is an in-game lot, and none of them suffers from the immortal lot syndrome.

Could you also search your plugins folders for all files containing the name "Rosebarb".
The one available on the LEX is called CSX Farm - Rosebarb_ef979c24.SC4Lot and dated May 14th, 2006.

[SC4BOY]

Seems like it probably is a case of an empty lot growing. Not sure why it's showing the Rosebarb query though. Have you tried scanning for Empty Lots using Cleanitol lately? If it's not on there, I'd think it's another Japanese lot created using the Blank RCI Set.

I dl'd a fresh update and ran the scan last night  I still have those I-D lots that I discussed in the other thread, but they are Ind, and that zone above is Com.. don't know if that is an absolute.. ie do they "cross-grow"? I haven't removed them yet as I am not sure of all the lots and the extent, but to the best of my knowledge, no "growables" exist for me other than that "NOB SET" that is as yet not adequately defined. Note below the slightly different behavior too. edit: Well I looked .. what I dl'd is the cleanitol linked in the Growing Empty Lots.... thread. If there is more recent info, I don't have it.

The 3x2 commercial lot does indeed look like a landmark that has grown on an empty lot.

The Rosebarb is not a landmark growing on an empty lot though. At least not the version that is on the LEX.
Could the one you have be an older one downloaded from STEX?

There could also be another reason why the same query would appear for both lots.
That happens if either of them has the immortal lot syndrome.

The immortal lot syndrome is caused by the building being placed too close to the edge of the lot,
so that either that lot or the neighbouring lot gets the query for the neighbouring lot.

That would also mean that you would not be able to successfully delete the lots.
Could you test to see if you are able to delete those two lots?

Ok, I just went into the city and tried to delete. I could delete the Rosebarb readily, but the "grown" one would not immediately delete (showed $0 and would not "highlight" for bulldozer). However it readily vanished when I "dezoned" it with the tool. I have preserved the city tile in its "grown" state for further testing if needed.

After I delete the real ROSEBARB, the query will not work on the "false" one anymore.. in fact it has NO QUERY (unlike the other "empty growables" that we've seen). It will only show as "med commercial" zone. This suggests to me that it is a case of "overhang inheritance" as you posited.

Looks like we have another ODD BIRD similar but not quite like the others.

At least the LEX version of Rosebarb is not suffering from the immortal lot syndrome.
However, once again, maybe you have an older version?

It wouldn't be the landmark that has grown on an empty lot though,
since that one is an in-game lot, and none of them suffers from the immortal lot syndrome.

That Rosebarb commercial jobs farm is more like a civic lot. There is no zoning associated with it as you can see from the "zone overlay" shot above. Of course I don't know much about it beyond that.

Could you also search your plugins folders for all files containing the name "Rosebarb".
The one available on the LEX is called CSX Farm - Rosebarb_ef979c24.SC4Lot and dated May 14th, 2006.

CSX Farm - Rosebarb_ef979c24.SC4Lot is my only entry for ROSEBARB other than the folder its in and that is the correct date for it. It was dl'd from LEX. I keep my dl's pretty updated, checking my "history" about every 2wks or so.. of course that doesn't catch ALL cases of "updates" as there are cases where the update shows false or doesn't show. But in this case it seems to agree.

[RippleJet]

that "NOB SET" that is as yet not adequately defined.

Now it is!

After I delete the real ROSEBARB, the query will not work on the "false" one anymore.. in fact it has NO QUERY (unlike the other "empty growables" that we've seen). It will only show as "med commercial" zone. This suggests to me that it is a case of "overhang inheritance" as you posited.

Indeed. That's what happens if you manage to delete one of the lots being tied through the immortal lot syndrome.

[SC4BOY]

Now it is!

I noted.. thanks..

Indeed. That's what happens if you manage to delete one of the lots being tied through the immortal lot syndrome.

Hmm can I do any other thiings for you? I did note that if I delete the "empty lot" first it does bulldoze, and takes the greenroofed building on the CSX lot with it. (note pic above) Since it has the same query as the Rosebarb, I can't tell more about it. Should we just assume its a "empty growable" and that it will go away once I scan for NOB's lots?.. well by "go away" I mean not happen again.

[RippleJet]

Hmm can I do any other thiings for you? I did note that if I delete the "empty lot" first it does bulldoze, and takes the greenroofed building on the CSX lot with it. (note pic above) Since it has the same query as the Rosebarb, I can't tell more about it. Should we just assume its a "empty growable" and that it will go away once I scan for NOB's lots?.. well by "go away" I mean not happen again.

The more I think about it, the more I'm becoming sure that the 3x2 empty lot actually was causing the immortal lot syndrome.
Most landmarks that grow on empty lots are based on RalphaelNinja's functional RCI lots, having an occupant size of just 0.5 × 0.5 m.
Thus, when placed on any in-game lot, that empty buildling would always be close to the centre of the lot and wouldn't cause any immortal lot syndromes.

If a user ever changed the Occupant Size property of the building exemplar though, it might be possible to trigger the immortal lot syndrome with a landmark growing on an empty lot.
However, none of those 53 lots by NOB have an occupant size any larger than 0.5 × 0.5 m...

The only way to be sure would of course be if you would manage to have that landmark grow again on a similar lot, and manage to query it before it becomes immortal.

[SC4BOY]

If I understand the jist of the many things we've discussed, I think its not a true "immortal", but rather a "empty growable" that "got adopted" by the CSX lot which MAY have had a tiny overhang on a prop or whatever. If I delete the "empty" lot first it deletes perfectly normally (other than taking a bite out of the CSX lot- hehe).. only if I "take away its mommie" does it get "lost". This is probably just a peculiarity of an "empty growable" that happens to be adjacent to the right lot...  After XX updates the growables cleanitol list, I'll run it. And I bet that after I run it, if I enter that city I'll get the "MISSING DEPENDENCE WARNING" from SC4.

[RippleJet]

Overhanging props never cause the immortal lot syndrome.
Only overhanging buildings do (the query is tied to the building, not to the lot, nor to any props).



I had to make a thorough analysis of the Rosebarb...

In the Lotconfig exemplar the centre of the buildling is at:
X = 11.506 m (horisontal distance from the NW corner)
Y = 16.860 m (vertical distance from the NW corner)

The width and the depth of the building in the Lotconfig exemplar is:
dX = 20.199 m (from 1.407 m to 21.606 m)
dY = 31.196 m (from 0.858 m to 32.054 m)

However, these measures do not correspond to the Occupant Size in the building exemplar
(which they should, unless changed for whatever obscure modding reason):
dX = 25.000 m
dY = 24.000 m

Placing this Occupant Size on the centre of the building as it is on the lot, we get the following extensions for the building:
dX = 25.000 m (from -0.994 m to 24.006 m)
dY = 24.000 m (from 4.860 m to 28.860 m)

Thus, the building does indeed extend beyond the left side of the lot, and is indeed immortal!

Do you think you could confirm this and run some tests on the Rosebarb,
plopping several of them all around your city and see if they become immortal?

[SC4BOY]

Sure I can plop them.. but I'm confused as to what I'm trying to test... Do you mean you want me to plop them around and zone things next to them? Or plop things next to them? Or just place them around, then try to delete them? Or.. give me a tiny bit more direction.. I do understand exactly what you are saying regarding the building and it's placement.. should I try to grow/plop things near that overhanging building?

[RippleJet]

Or just place them around, then try to delete them? Or.. give me a tiny bit more direction..

Yes, start with plopping it around (and next to each other) and try to query them and their neighbours.
Then try to delete them.

should I try to grow/plop things near that overhanging building?

If the first test won't lead to the immortal lot syndrome, then try some of that.

[SC4BOY]

ummmkay.. I had no problem making Rosebarb go "immortal" just by making a plop or two on the overhang side. After deleting the adjacent lot (which had of course inherited the Rosebarb query) then Rosebarb was "immortal". I had no problem deleting it via the normal "dump an immortal" procedures, but this should confirm your investigation



It may or may not be related, but coincident to doing this, I had the sound lock in a very long "loop" playing parts of the query track .. it eventually quit, but I wonder if this may relate to people's reports of "infinite sound loops" problems which I have read about on Simtropolis.

[RippleJet]

ummmkay.. I had no problem making Rosebarb go "immortal" just by making a plop or two on the overhang side. After deleting the adjacent lot (which had of course inherited the Rosebarb query) then Rosebarb was "immortal". I had no problem deleting it via the normal "dump an immortal" procedures, but this should confirm your investigation

Thanks!

Enclosed to this post is the Rosebarb with a corrected Occupant Size, to match the size in the LotConfig exemplar.
Could you replace CSX Farm - Rosebarb_ef979c24.SC4Lot with this file and test it again?

Hopefully you will not be able to trigger the immortal lot syndrome with this!

[SC4BOY]

Yep that seems to take care of it.. I assume I should replace all instances of the ROSEBARB lot in any cities?

Do you think the sound issue is coincidental?

[RippleJet]

Yep that seems to take care of it..

Excellent! I'll ask Barby to update the Rosebarb on the LEX when she returns from her extended weekend in the UK.

I assume I should replace all instances of the ROSEBARB lot in any cities?

I think you will have to do that, yes. Even though this updated lot has the same TGI address as the old one.
Since plopped lots are saved in the saved game file, just replacing the lot file is probably not sufficient to remedy the problem.

Do you think the sound issue is coincidental?

I have no experience myself in the inifinite sound loops, so I can't give you an answer on that.
However, I doubt the immortal lot syndrome would be the reason...

[SC4BOY]

Excellent! I'll ask Barby to update the Rosebarb on the LEX when she returns from her extended weekend in the UK.

I thought she had been mysteriously silent! 

I think you will have to do that, yes. Even though this updated lot has the same TGI address as the old one.
Since plopped lots are saved in the saved game file, just replacing the lot file is probably not sufficient to remedy the problem.

Okie dokies


Thanks for all your help here.. great job! 

[BarbyW]

I have returned but not home. The update will have to wait until I return to France on Wed.

[SC4BOY]

Hmmm.. hate to dredge up old laundry.. but... 

While playing through my cities last night, I came through the city that was discussed above (with the rosebarb lot).. When we last discussed this (some time ago) I dl'd the patch (noted above) that you supplied me, checked it out, then went merrily about my bizwax.. then when I was "running up" my cities to allow even development, I noted that AGAIN the COM lot next to ROSEBARB had again gone "overhang".. I  have not rebuilt the lot since the last discussion, but just a bit of fooling with it indicated that it was indeed "immortal" again..

This brings me to this question.. I have not downloaded another copy of rosebarb, nor have I changed anything that I know of since we checked this out.. but mysteriously I now have an "immortal" rosebarb lot again.. do you suppose some other lot or "megapack" upgrade has sneaked it's way back into the lot after you gave me the patched one? this I suppose would have overwritten the patch.. I know that I have not specifically replaced it and I know that at no point did DATPACKER indicate any repeat of the lot (superceed)