NAM + CAM: is it possible? Miscellaneous Q.

[0rion79]

Hi all, this is my first time here and I have a very important question.

SC4 is for sure one of the games that can be better appreciated after a long time from its release.

The problem is that now I'm very confused. After hearing about the CAM, I went to download it and I've seen that it is really an HUGE game rebalancement.

Now, there are 3 issues about which I do really care a lot and I want to hear your opinion.

1st - I have red the instructions manual that I've found together with the CAM (got from Bit torrent, still good?). It says that CAM has its own streets & mass transit rebalancement that, about speed, sounds much better than NAM, with a more realistic speed. But what about pathfinding?
And what about all those nice custom contents, as the roundabouts and 1-square tools for custom mass-transit modules, as the rail+street squares? I have used them a lot!!

So, how can I use NAM and the CAM together? Do the Automata Controller Files may conflict with CAM? And what about Traffic controller files? What if I choose "perfect pathfinding" with no multiplier (x2 or x5)?

2nd - I've seen that CAM is not compatibile with some MODs that I have, as lower pedriana farms or industry quadrupler. Ok, if the CAM rebalances the game, I can easily give them up. But what about Opera theater mod, that increased its capacity? it was quite an important add-on for very large towns!!

3rd - I've red about the commuters loop. I think I have experimented it only in very few cities and I think I can risk to use CAM on my older maps, but how can I prevent it from happening? It is quite frustrating! The only way could be of NOT creating connections among cities

4th - anything else that I should know?

Thank you very much

PS: from some weeks, I'm experimenting a weird "quit-to-desktop" trouble. Instead than opening SC4 deluxe as usual, I see all my desktop icons disappearing and my PC opens at once both SC4 and my Documents folder, so that I have to press ALT+TAB to switch back to SC4. The game goes fine but, when I come back to my desktop, still there are no icons and the START menu is frozen and does not come up even with the windows keyboard button. Too many plug-ins? Never happened to you?

[BarbyW]

4th - anything else that I should know?

As I told you on Simtrop  - "(got from Bit torrent, still good?). " - is NOT good as it is an unauthorised distribution.

[callagrafx]

As I told you on Simtrop  - "(got from Bit torrent, still good?). " - is NOT good as it is an unauthorised distribution.

And there is no support for unauthorised products.  Why download a torrent full of someone else's plugins?  That's just asking for trouble.

[0rion79]

Ok, I've got it and, by fact, I'm not using it. Still, the readme manual by RippleJet that I've found looks original and, even if not, I think that the questions that I've made are still valid regardless from how I've got my copy.
And more, since I know it is an unauthorized version, I don't want to take any risk about installing it on my game maybe to have other kind of troubles.

And, regardless, of it, I would like very much to have the answers that I need BEFORE downloading a 1.2 gb pack
So, please: be kind... ^_^

[Diggis]

Ok, I've got it and, by fact, I'm not using it. Still, the readme manual by RippleJet that I've found looks original and, even if not, I think that the questions that I've made are still valid regardless from how I've got my copy.
And more, since I know it is an unauthorized version, I don't want to take any risk about installing it on my game maybe to have other kind of troubles.

And, regardless, of it, I would like very much to have the answers that I need BEFORE downloading a 1.2 gb pack
So, please: be kind... ^_^

Actually you're questions aren't valid, as if you had downloaded the official version you would have been given some extra files that would help you sort out your plugins.  There are cleanitol files that will remove incompatiable mods.  If a mod isn't in the list, there is a fair chance it will work with the CAM.  There is a thread here that lists the incompatable mods, check that.

There is no problem using NAM and CAM together, just don't install the CAM promote biking. (again, via bit torrent, you can't tell if someone has done if for you)  The NAM pathfinding engines etc were updated after the CAM and are the better option.

To avoid the commuter loop try and not connect cities up in a loop, so you can connect a-b and b-c, but don't then connect c-a close by.  You can do it futher away so the commuters will look for work before finding the city border.

CAM isn't a 1.2 gb download, it's a relativly small one from the LEX.  You just need to download the lots etc that go with it, which are all linked in another thread here.  I would recommend ditching the torrent file, as you have no idea what it contains, and if all the dependencies are there.  Heaven help you if you come back here complaining of brown boxes.

[RippleJet]

Let me just quote another thread in its entirety.
And please, for your own sake, read it carefully before asking your next question.

Despite being told not to, an ex-member of this site recently decided to upload the CAM, most CAMeLots and over 500 MB worth of dependencies and megapacks as a torrent file.

Virtually every upload on the BSC LEX and elsewhere is uploaded under a license agreement in one of the forms quoted below:

You may use these objects FREE provided that you do not SELL or DISTRIBUTE the MODEL Files ... you must point your users to the MODEL File package.

Person/Team X has copyrights on these objects and you may use them but not modify the Model Files or Distribute the Model Files. You must point your users of your creations to this file for the MODELS.

Even if no reference to a license or copyright is included, it is also a common understanding within the SC4 Community that model files may not be distributed without asking the creator for permission.

We have thoroughly examined the package that was uploaded as a torrent file and have noticed a few issues; there are files copyrighted by Maxis/EA included, there are model files missing (which will lead to brown boxes), and there are a number of superfluous files included.

Naturally, we take no responsibility for faulty or incomplete material distributed this way and neither can nor will provide any support for issues arising from it.

The only official source to download the CAM and most CAMeLots is the BSC LEX and the official support is given on this board and site.

Anyone else considering to distribute copyrighted material as a torrent file or on another site, will face the same fate as the member mentioned above.

[0rion79]

Diggis, thank you a lot because you've provided most of the informations that I was looking for.

Actually you're questions aren't valid, as if you had downloaded the official version you would have been given some extra files that would help you sort out your plugins.  There are cleanitol files that will remove incompatiable mods.  If a mod isn't in the list, there is a fair chance it will work with the CAM.  There is a thread here that lists the incompatable mods, check that.

After dowloading the original CAM - and thanks for spoiling me about that Torrent matter, I didn't know! - I've seen that at least the manual from bTorrent was original and very detailed.
First of all, I'm using Industry Quadrupler, Lower Pedriana Farms Frequency, PluginNoDilapidation - wich I think I can give up for the CAM. But I wonder if the CAM is worthy of loosing those mods that I like a lot!

There is no problem using NAM and CAM together, just don't install the CAM promote biking. (again, via bit torrent, you can't tell if someone has done if for you)  The NAM pathfinding engines etc were updated after the CAM and are the better option.

Yes, in the manual was already written that it is possibile to use both, but I need to know what follows.
Is it possibile to have NAM pathfindins and CAM updated cars & mass transit speed all together? In short, in wich order do I have to install them after a SC4 deluxe vanilla installation? First CAM with new speed and then NAM, with the setting WITHOUT multiplers and just "perfect pathfinding"?
As far as I remember from NAM 2008, it increases streets capacity by x2 or x5, but does nothing about speed!

To avoid the commuter loop try and not connect cities up in a loop, so you can connect a-b and b-c, but don't then connect c-a close by.  You can do it futher away so the commuters will look for work before finding the city border.

So, you are telling me that the loop happens even just with 3 cities, right? Maybe 2 small squares and a medium-size map and all 3 of them are connected. What if I do generate enough job places in the same city to satisfy demand? Do the commuters still enter into a perpetual loop?

CAM isn't a 1.2 gb download, it's a relativly small one from the LEX.  You just need to download the lots etc that go with it, which are all linked in another thread here.  I would recommend ditching the torrent file, as you have no idea what it contains, and if all the dependencies are there.  Heaven help you if you come back here complaining of brown boxes.

Yes, now that I've found the original one, I understand how using the torrent file was damn easy. But it has been my first result on google and I thought that it was an official release! After reading about CAM, I was believing too that it was really a HUGE pack, because I imaged that a lot of files were required to make all those changes!

Now, instead, I just wonder if using the CAM is something that is really worthy of. The commuters loop sounds as a serious matter - but I think I can deal with it -and I'm afraid about further compatibility issues. Still, some changes like the one about the grandrail station, or police vs crime sounds VERY interesting!
From the manual, I can't understand another 2 things. That matter about growth stages and the demand ranges.
I don't understand how the first change affects the gameplay experience: does the game become easier or harder? or just different?
And about demand ranges, for me it sounds quite normal that there are few $$ or $$$ sims that are rich land owners (working in famrs), the top bosses of small comercial buildings or, by cons, that there are few $ sims that go cleaning the stairs in $$$ commercial offices! So, do you suggest me to activate those options or not?

As final question, please, may you give me your personal opinion about CAM? Is it really worthy of? Does it brings true benefits to SC4 deluxe? Thank you very much for your patience

[RippleJet]

First of all, I'm using Industry Quadrupler, Lower Pedriana Farms Frequency, PluginNoDilapidation - wich I think I can give up for the CAM. But I wonder if the CAM is worthy of loosing those mods that I like a lot!

Read about CAM - inCAMpatible Mods

Is it possibile to have NAM pathfindins and CAM updated cars & mass transit speed all together? In short, in wich order do I have to install them after a SC4 deluxe vanilla installation? First CAM with new speed and then NAM, with the setting WITHOUT multiplers and just "perfect pathfinding"?

Read about CAM + NAM

So, you are telling me that the loop happens even just with 3 cities, right? Maybe 2 small squares and a medium-size map and all 3 of them are connected.

Yes, a loop can go through 1 larger and two smaller cities as well.

What if I do generate enough job places in the same city to satisfy demand? Do the commuters still enter into a perpetual loop?

Sims will usually take the closest neghbour connection rather than any job further away in the same city.

Now, instead, I just wonder if using the CAM is something that is really worthy of. The commuters loop sounds as a serious matter - but I think I can deal with it -and I'm afraid about further compatibility issues.

The commuter loops appear without the CAM as well.
You would normally just not realise you've got them until later in the game.

From the manual, I can't understand another 2 things. That matter about growth stages and the demand ranges.
I don't understand how the first change affects the gameplay experience: does the game become easier or harder? or just different?

Experience is difficult to explain, so the best way is to figure it out yourself!
You might get some ideas by comparing the two graphs in the first post here though:
CAM - Show us your CAM Cities

And about demand ranges, for me it sounds quite normal that there are few $$ or $$$ sims that are rich land owners (working in famrs), the top bosses of small comercial buildings or, by cons, that there are few $ sims that go cleaning the stairs in $$$ commercial offices! So, do you suggest me to activate those options or not?

I think you're talking about the optional changed Census Drives, not Demand Ranges, right?
If you want a faster transition from § to §§, you might want to use those files adding 5% §§ jobs in CS§, I-D and I-R.

If you want to develop low-wealth rural and industrial cities, you should not use them.
They are installed in the a_CAM folder, and can easily be removed if you don't want them.

[0rion79]

Hello boss
Asking directly to the author is my best luck
I don't quote for not filling the page with repetitions, so...

1 - I have already red your guide to inCAMpatibile mods, so I know what's not working with CAM. I was just asking for personal point of view. Yes, for sure many things are already included in the CAM so there is no reason to worry about.

2 - "So for new users, it's best to choose no traffic simulator while installing CAM. Instead use the ones included with the latest NAM." is what is coming from the thread that you have suggested me and where you write your opinion too). But I can't understand what the effect is. Again, can I have both CAM speed and NAM capacity & pathfinding?

3 - thanks a lot for the infos about commuters loop.

4 - I've seen the graphs and... wow, sounds intriguing! Huge cities, new developments, hi-tech industries that really look as I expect them to be, and much more.

The only question left is that I've read about the idea of creating a CAM 2.0 and a new RoadToMassTransit MOD.
Sometimes, I would like to play the game too, instead than caring about downloads only!

So, the final question is: qhat do you think of CAM? Do you use it? Do you like it at 100% or there are some bad sides that I should know? Do you suggest me to install it? And any special CAMeLOT to get?

I think that, with the next questions, I will have nothing else to ask.
Thank you again: even if my english is good, it is still very difficult to deal with such a big interaction of different plug-ins and projects!

[BarbyW]

I wouldn't play without CAM now as it means that I can develop skyscraper cities without them growing in the middle of rural areas as some of the original ones can. It improves gameplay as it takes longer to get the high rise blocks just as in real life.
It is a long job to collect all the models and new lots for CAM but definitely worth it. Please read CAMeLots - Linking all available lots and bats carefully as this will help you to collect the higher stage lots and the models needed. If you have any further questions, please ask.

[RippleJet]

2 - "So for new users, it's best to choose no traffic simulator while installing CAM. Instead use the ones included with the latest NAM." is what is coming from the thread that you have suggested me and where you write your opinion too). But I can't understand what the effect is. Again, can I have both CAM speed and NAM capacity & pathfinding?

Yes, I would recommend to use one of the latest pathfinders included in the latest NAM.
And, no, you cannot use more than only one pathfinder. Thus, you cannot have both.

Regarding the effect of NAM's pathfinders... hmmm...
this post would be too long if I started to copy what can be read here:

NAM Traffic Simulator Help

[0rion79]

Yes, I would recommend to use one of the latest pathfinders included in the latest NAM.
And, no, you cannot use more than only one pathfinder. Thus, you cannot have both.

Regarding the effect of NAM's pathfinders... hmmm...
this post would be too long if I started to copy what can be read here:

NAM Traffic Simulator Help

Thanks for answering. I have already red that post about NAM effects. Now I really have no doubts left and I think that CAM is something that I must have for a better gameplay. It is strange that I didn't hear about that earlier
Anyway, I think that I will do as follow in this order:
- sart collecting CAMeLots
- Install CAM without the biking option and without census divers: I like to build in my map both rural areas and hi-tech metropolis so, if it is just a way to speed up the coming of huge skyscreapers that will come anyway but may compromise the looking of rural areas, I prefer NOT to use it even if it sounds more realistic.
- Install NAM with Perfect Pathfinding, Simulator B, no Park&Ride and Medium difficulty level, because it sounds as the most balanced for me.

I only wonder if a new CAM version will be released soon, to merge it with NAM.

PS: anyway, NAM commuting speeds sound a bit too slow for me, really... CAM speeds with trains moving at 200 km/h are more realistic.

[RippleJet]

I only wonder if a new CAM version will be released soon

Eventually...

to merge it with NAM.

No, NAM and CAM will stay separate forever.

PS: anyway, NAM commuting speeds sound a bit too slow for me, really... CAM speeds with trains moving at 200 km/h are more realistic.

It's all relative... the scale of regions vs. scale of cities isn't quite accurate either.

[Tarkus]

- Install NAM with Perfect Pathfinding, Simulator B, no Park&Ride and Medium difficulty level, because it sounds as the most balanced for me.

Actually, you can't have both "Perfect Pathfinding" and "Simulator B".  "Perfect Pathfinding" refers to a separate Traffic Simulator--"Simulator C", if I remember right.

I'd pick Simulator B myself, as it's more recently developed and works a great deal better.

-Alex (Tarkus)

[0rion79]

Eventually...
No, NAM and CAM will stay separate forever.
It's all relative... the scale of regions vs. scale of cities isn't quite accurate either.

Heheheh... Well, RJ, I really have to bow to you for the great work and I know, since I was a modder many years ago, how jealos you may be of your own works
I've just read the post about CAM 1.1 and I would like to give you my 1 cent opinion.
What you want to do is just great, and I like your efforts very much.

Still, I'm a bit unsure about that more radical taxes/growth ratio that you want to add in 1.1. Can you leave it optional? I want to have an easy life while playing: for me the challenge in SC4 is not to have it economically fine but to have each city as an artistic one-piece.

About "merging" it with NAM, of course I was just teasing you a bit. You are the first one to say that NAM pathfinding is the best but I really have to complain about speed. It is just NOT realistic. You know, once I have tried to make a reproduction of my own city with SC4Deluxe (Cagliari, Italy) using our streets lists & guide local magazine (don't know how to translate it) and it was quite nice because very similar in shape, but I immediately realized that the commute times were absurde. Even without intra-cities connections, it took something like 90 minutes to reach the other side of that city - placed on the largest kind of map, when the average time here is 30 and only using cars. I do live in a 300.000 souls city, with no subway or highway but just busses and 2 train stations. And we have a terrible historycal center, with VERY narrow streets that do not allow going faster than 20km/h!!!!
Then I've understood.
It is not realistic to have a car driver going at 30 kms in city, when the true speed limit is 50 km/h and very often people reach 60 km/h ignoring laws. Join this with the terrible vanilla pathfinding script and with the fact that SC4 sizes are not very realistic anyway, and we've found the reasons for such bad commuting times. As well, I know by experience that trains and subway are much faster than the ones listed in NAM so then i have to agree about your choice of making faster cars and mass transit systems.

If you can, and I don't know if this is possible, I think that your idea of not developing any pathfinder with CAM 1.1 is right, but you should try to enhance cars & MT speeds in a separate file that is compatibile with NAM, since it is constantly updated and is recognized as a "must have" for all SC4 players.

If I can write here about more generic needs and, maybe, give you some "hint" I would like very much to see some improvements about generic gameplay, especially about ordinances. A more detailed description of pro and cons about each of them and the following "clean water ordinance" for farms, "no dirty industry" and "no manufacturing industry", wich would be nice to prevent them from coming in cities that are designated to Hi-tech IND without being forced to rise taxes and loosing the I-D and I-M total demand.

Then there are so many other minor matters about SC4, and other personal wishes that I think would make happy only me and few others... for example, here in Italy commercial offices don't want traffic, while only some kinds of commercial services do need traffic to develop. Others, instead, as huge all-do commercial centers, do generate it and actract people regardless of the traffic. But this is another argument and I don't want to go off-topic.

C u!

[RippleJet]

I moved this thread into the CAM board. ´
I'd prefer if questions regarding NAM's pathfinding could be asked in the NAM board though...
They are better at designing the pathfinders than I am and better at providing answers to those questions as well.

Still, I'm a bit unsure about that more radical taxes/growth ratio that you want to add in 1.1. Can you leave it optional? I want to have an easy life while playing: for me the challenge in SC4 is not to have it economically fine but to have each city as an artistic one-piece.

CAM 1.1 is more or less buried at the moment...
Instead, we're aiming directly at CAM 2.0.

The reason for this is that the next CAM will probably not be fully CAMpatible with CAM 1.0.
You will probably have to choose if you use CAM 1.0 or CAM 2.0, and not upgrade 1.0 to 2.0...

On another note though... we are planning on making three different difficulty levels of CAM 2.0.
Thus, be sure to know that there will still be one version for you to play with as well!

[0rion79]

Well, it was just to talk, not really to complain about NAM or SCD...
Anyway, is there any discussion about CAM 2.0 yet? I think I will wait for 2.0 then...

[RippleJet]

Anyway, is there any discussion about CAM 2.0 yet?

Only in private...
Shhhh, don't tell others about our secrets...

[0rion79]

LOL! ok, private message the link to me then, I'm just curious to know what you are planning to do in 2.0
Maybe I can help you thinking about the unexpected. After all, I'm still a psychologist (not joking)