Recreating San Francisco: Real Life Aside, October 1, 2009

[mayorfabz]

Hi Lora
I am actually a big fan of Brigantine, although I admit the transition between PW and GW is an issue I haven't been able to solve yet. But most importantly I wouldn't rely at all to Google Earth for an accurate depiction of the color of the water: too many different pictures taken at different times from different angles on different days under different weather conditions. When I zoom out I have this feeling of watching and old patchwork blankie at my grandmother's house  We are tackling with yet another limitation of the game anyway, since SC4 doesn't allow different colors for salt water and... uh... river water (sorry I can't find the proper word in English ) which is so obvious when watching a delta or an estuary from above.
I hope you find what suits best your concept of San Francisco Bay. I am always excited at the prospect of your next update.
Cheers
Fabien

Oh, and welcome to page 8, by the way.

[meinhosen]

Lora,

I've used Brigantine since PEG released it, and I haven't had a bad day with it yet.  I think the only place that it hasn't worked well for me is when I'm building regions with small, muddy rivers and creeks (rivers that are just a tad to big for TPW).  One thing you might want to experiment with is how your favorite water mods look with your chosen terrain mod (TM).  Sometimes shallow areas look different given the fact that TM shallows have different textures than the default Maxis textures.  Case-in-point is the Missouri Breaks- some shallow areas give a reddish appearance, others have a more gray, rocky texture.  Default Maxis in those same areas is a tannish, sickly color mixed with the cheerfully dull game water.

From the looks of your screenshots it appears you're using the default textures.  Like I mentioned, you may want to break out your TM and see how the Brigantine, SeaGreen, and Overcast.  Just so you know, I'm more at home with the games water in rivers and lakes, not larger bodies such as oceans and coastlines, so my advice may be a bit 'regional', but at least applicable on some level.  Good luck with finding the right water mod.

Oh, and thank you for the link to the slope mod.

[ecoba]

Hey,Lora,

             I feel bad saying this now, but it looks like I'm not going to be able to lot for you right now. 

RL is hitting me hard at the moment, and I haven't been able to spend much time on the computer. Most of my time is spent online, but a lot of the time, it's doing research for school. Plus, the symphony orchestra is starting up again, and that, along with school orchestra and private lessons, makes music take up a good amount of my time.

I might get myself a new computer soon, one that can handle the BAT. If so, I could make lots from the start.

I feel bad going back on what I promised earlier, but, as many people on this site have experienced, RL hits you especially hard when you don't expect it.

I will still constantly comment on your MD, and I can't wait to see your progress. If I do ever have a spell where I am free of other activities, I will certainly spend some time lotting.

Sorry,

          Ethan

[ldvger]

Update 18

Replies

mayorfabz/Fabien: Thanks for stopping by and yes, I agree, I like Brigantine a lot, too, just wonder of it's maybe a little too dark and grey for SF Bay area and Pacific Ocean.  And yes, the transition between PW and GW is an ongoing challenge no one seems to have really solved yet, although lots of people are working on it, off and on.  There is a thread here on SC4D over at the Landscape Design Studio about it and another on another forum here but I forget the name of it right now.  Seems right now most folks use a camoflage technique which works visually semi-well but is not really very realistic and for this MD, realism (or as close as I can get) is where it's at.  Also, yes I agree I should probably not let Google Earth color my perceptions of what the water colors should be.  After I posted my update last night, I spent considerable time with Google Earth and came to the same conclusion.  I think I will trust my own memory, instead, and go from there.  I'm glad you are enjoying my efforts and hope you stop by often!

meinhosen:  As I said above, I like Brigantine, too, just don;t like the way it fades so much as it approaches shore.  It's also a bit choppy, which is great for northern seas, but I'm not sure I am going to want to have that level of choppiness for SF Bay.  I also think it's just a tad too grey.  As for terrain mod, yes I am using the Maxis defualt, as all the other ones I tried are just too green for coastal central California.  Page back a few pages to see the ones I settled on trying.  Eventhe default is a bit green, more like California in the late spring as it starts to brown/gold up.  I think it was MrWacko who reminded us that CA is nicknamed The Golden State not because of the various gold rushes but because that is the general color of the terrain there.  Other than the far northern coastal areas, it's generally a very arid state and there is very little in the way of forests or undergrowth along the coasts.  And as for using game water for rivers and lakes, that's cool if you have flat terrain, but mine is anything but, so I have no choice but to use both PW and GW.  Your welcome for the slope mod and thanks for stopping by, always good to see you and I appreciate your comments!

ecoba/Ethan: Please don't fret or worry about not being able to spend time helping me out.  RL always comes first, especially school, so just do what you need to do.  I appreciate your offer, but really I should learn to do this stuff for myself rather than depend on others to do it for me, so you push me a little closer to opening the LE tutorials and getting started, for which I also thank you.  What instrument do you play?  I trained in classical piano as a young girl but then became a teenager and that was the end of MY musical career!  Thanks for stopping and please, don't feel bad.

Update 18: Water Mods, Part 2

So, this afternoon, I want to look at the new Inshore options, of which there are 14.  The first thing I want to do is see if they are compatible with the Brigantine mod.  That mod is already in my plugins folder from yesterday, so I've also installed an inshore option to see if the game will open and what things might look like if it does.  Time to fire up the game!

Very interesting.  The game opens and runs just fine with both mods installed.  Take a look at this:

18.2


This is the DkBlue option and I'm kinda liking it.  I like the way it carries color closer to the shore and am thinking this may help a lot with transitioning PW to GW.  Let's take a look at how the others look with the Brigantine.

18.3


Ewww, I don't like that at all.  This is DkCyan. 

18.4


This is DkYellow and as odd as it looks right now (and it does indeed look odd), it's something to keep in mind given the mudflats in this area and the muddy waters of the creeks and rivers that empty into the bay.  It's yellow-ness may also be mitigated by one of the Foreshore or Beaches options, too, so I'm not ready to say this is automatically a no-go.

18.5


This is Emerald and I'm not liking that at all.

18.6


This is Green.  No good.

18.7


This is Grey and it just compounds the issues I have with Brigantine as it is.

18.8


This is Ice.  No good.

18.9


This is LtYellow and again I'm not ready to say No Way due to the mud flats and muddy rivers/creeks.  I like this better than the DkYellow, though.

18.10


This is Neutral and it blends very nicely with the Brigantine, but it makes me now want to take a quick peek at the Brigantine without any Inshore option installed, to see if maybe this Inshore option should be more appropriately named Invisible or Transparent.

18.11


This is plain old Brigantine.  There are differences, but they are very subtle.  The Neutral seems to be slightly bluer and slightly greyer.  I think I like the Neutral installed better than the plain old Brigantine, I think the color transition towards shore is slightly better.  An option to keep in mind, but I don't think it will help with my PW/GW problems.

18.12


This is Overcast and I'm liking that quite a bit. 

18.13


This is Steel and it's not too bad, but a trifle too light and aqua, I think.

18.14


This is Tropic and I didn't think this would work, and it doesn't, but it was worth a look-see.

18.15


This is Turbid and no, I don't think so.

18.16


This is Ultramarine and I don't think it's too bad.  It's actually very good at closer zooms, loses some of it's neon-ness.

So that's it for this update.  Please, I need your comments and feedback, so post away!  I have RL obligations tomorrow (game day and dinner party day, although I made the spaghetti sauce this evening, so I could play instead of cook). 

My next update will be looking at Foreshore and Beach options of this new set of mods, I think there are 6-7 of each, and if I understand the Readme for this pack correctly I can only use one of any of them.  It may help if I can determine the Inshore option I want to use ahead of time, as well as the Offshore, so I have some way of determining how the Foreshore.Beach options look in combo with what I have already chosen.  So please feel free to continue to comment on the Offshore pics I posted in Update 17.

Lora/LD

[mayorfabz]

My top3 would be 1. Overcast 2. LtYellow 3. Neutral. Definitely not Tropic or Ultramarine.
Feel free to disregard !
Fabien

[Battlecat]

Those inshore textures are new to me, I'm going to have to look closer at them!  I certainly have to agree, Brigantine is one of the nice water textures out there.  I love the way it has ripples.  I think my personal favorite of those inshore mods is the overcast.  It's subtle, but it does a nice job of darkening up the shoreline.  Of course the best test would actually come through using the plopable water and seeing how the transitions look with these inshore mods in place. 

I'll have to look into these secondary shoreline mods, someday in here I might actually wind up building on a tile that has game water on it! 

[djvandrake]

Either Dark blue or the Ultramarine are my favorites. 

[TheTeaCat]

Hi Lora

I was going to suggest those new water mods to you but then I come to check your update and well there you go showing us your experiments.

Personally my fav is the overcast followed by the light yellow. But if you use the inshore/offshore and beach textures things will become even more difficult for you to decide. (too many options )
Either way I look forward to seeing what you do

regards
Derry

[Tomas Neto]

Either Dark blue or the Ultramarine are my favorites. 

I agree!!! 

[ldvger]

Update 19

Replies

mayorfabz/Fabien: Thanks so much for sharing your preferences, I agree with you almost entirely!  Hope you stop by again soon, more voting coming up!

Battlecat: Yes, I was looking for something completely different when I stumbled on this pack of mods and thought, hmmm...might be useful...so I downloaded it.  Someday I'll do the math and figure out exactly how many different combos this pack makes available, but I'm busy exploring the looks of it right now.  I love the Brigantine also and it's rippled texture, but it has it's drawbacks.  Fisrt, the ripples are actually quite large if they are veiwable at extreme far zooms, which makes them waves rather than ripples.  It also fades to nearly clear as it nears shore, which makes transitioning PW tp GW very problematic.  These new Offshore mods I am trying out are also rippled, just much smaller ripples that appear non-rippled at far zooms.  Closer zooms reveal the ripple texture, which is actually very good, does not tile at all, and would be consistent with a nearly landlocked, and very large, inland body of water.  And I have actually been playing around with PW/GW transitions all along, just haven't done screen captures yet.  Thanks for stopping by, always good to see you!

djvandrake:  Thanks for casting a vote, sharing input, means alot to me.  Both colors you chose made my own personal final cut even before I read replies!  Stop by again soon, and vote again soon, anohter set of comparisons to judge!

TheTeaCat/Derry: Like I said, I found this new set of mods totally by mistake, but very good to know someone (you!) were thinking about me!  Thans for stopping by and yes, both of your choices also made my final cut as well, so we're all on the same track here.  Come back soon, more voting to take place!

Tomas Neto:  Thanks for your input and both of your choises made the cut!  Stope by again soon and vote again!

Update 19: Water Mods, Part 3

After posting Update 18 this evening I went back and reviewed the last two updates and made a list of the mods I am liking so far and came up with this:

Offshore: Brigantine, Overcast, Turbid, Steel, and SeaGreen
Inshore: DkBlue, LtYellow, Overcast, and Ultramarine

So I have decided to do some Chinese menu mix and matching, to see what I come up with, even before I try out the Inshore/Beach mods I have yet to look at.  We have already seen Brigantine matched up with all the Inshore options, so now I am going to remove Brigantine and install Overcast, then match it up with the 4 Inshore mods I am liking.  I have 4 Offshore mods I like and 4 Inshore, so (watch out, a little bit of math here), that means 16 combos to check out. 

It's after midnight (12:09 am) on Sunday night as I start this, so it's not likely I'll get all the way through it tonite.  And, as I warned at the end of the last update, tomorrow is not a day I am likely to find time to play in game at all, so this update may not post until sometime Tuesday (my knitting meeting has been canceled for this week, so I have Tuesday to play in game pretty much all day...jeez I wish I had a job!)

So here we go. 

19.1


For this exercise, I will be naming the Offshore option first, then the Inshore option.  This is Overcast/DkBlue and I like it.  It looks even better at closer zooms, but given this update will have at least 16 pics in it, I will save close zooms for another update, when I/we have narrowed things down a bit.

19.2


This is Overcast/LtYellow.  Again, as weird as it may look, it looks a lot more like the RL water in the area than just about anything else.  This also becomes much better at close zooms. 

19.3


This is Overcast/Overcast and it looks very good, don't you agree?  Really a nod to the person who created these mods that these two match so very well with each other. 

19.4


This is Overcast/Ultramarine and does not look like a very good match. 

That's as far as I can go with this tonite.  My roomie came home early full of angst about an altercation with a co-worker that occurred during his shift today and while he is asleep now, he needed/wanted to talk about it, so of course I had to try to understand/sympathize.  That was 45 minutes ago and now I too am ready for sleep.  I will continue this as soon as I can, which will likely be tomorrow (Tuesday) evening. 

So now it's Tuesday evening and I'm ready to continue, after a pleasant day of board games (in which I lost 4 of 4, the men split the wins between them) and a very nice spaghetti dinner. 

Ya know, great minds work in the same direction.  When I started this update last night, no one had yet posted any thoughts about Update 18 and the various Inshore options and I chose my own top 4 favs for this Update.  I logged into the MD this evening and find that opinions are fairly evenly split between which 4 options?  The exact same four I chose!  Pretty cool, huh?

Ok, I made it through all Inshore options with Overcast as the Offshore color, so lets take a look at what Turbid looks like with all 4 Inshore options:

19.5


This is Turbid/Ultramarine (working backwards in order from the first set of 4).  Not liking either much and not together.

19.6


This is Turbid/Overcast and I have to say these look very good together, but seem a bit light for central CA. 

19.7


This is Turbid/LtYellow and again, these two work very well together.  I like this quite a bit.

19.8


This is Turbid/DkBlue and I think they work well together other than the fact that in areas near shore appear to be deeper than the areas further from shore.

So now we'll look at Steel for the Offshore option and see what we come up with.  I am REALLY liking this set of mods and the HUGE variety of looks that can be gained from it!

19.9


This is Steel/DkBlue and I think they work very well together.  If my creeks/rivers were blue when they joined the sea or the bay, this may be something to give a much closer look at and maybe other folks who don't have extensive mud to deal with will find this a handy combo, as I have a feeling the TPW would plop well with this. 

19.10


This is Steel/LtYellow and these work pretty good together, too.  I think the Steel is just a little too light, though, for SF bay.

19.11


This is Steel/Overcast and I think these both work very well together.  I especially like the way the water becomes greener as it approaches shore...it could work very nicely with the green TPW.

19.12


This is Steel/Ultramarine.  Not liking it much, they don't blend well and the Offshore is too light for the Inshore. 

So now let's look at the SeaGreen Offshore option.  I don't really like the SeaGreen for Pacific Ocean tiles, but it may be just perfect for SF bay, especially if combined with the right Inshore option.  I especially like the fact that, to my eyes, the SeaGreen offshore option looks so much like a dirty swimming pool, which really, if you think about it, is pretty much what RL SF bay is.  It's a LOT of water with only two small major inlets (the Golden Gate in the west and the combined big central valley rivers in the east) and one small outlet (the Golden Gate), so the water would never have be crystalline and blue, even before humans built there and starting polluting it.  As vigorous as the twice daily tidal changes are, I am willing to bet dimes to dollars that a full water change in the bay itself takes months to accomplish, if not longer.  When flying over the bay, even on a clear sunny day, at higher altitudes it is blue, but the close one gets to the surface, the greener and browner it becomes.   I don't want to take anything away from SF folks who love their bay, but it's really not very clean water, as least visually. 

19.13


This is SeaGreen/Ultramarine and if that isn't awful I don't know what is!  Looks like the aftermath of extreme radiation or something!

19.14


This is SeaGreen/Overcast and while they work very well together, it's just too green for me and I don't think very realistic to the RL bay.

19.15


This is SeaGreen/LtYellow.  They seem to work pretty good together and I am not hating it.  Just not really liking the green of the Offshore...it's a little too verdant for me.  I will there was a brownish green option for the bay.  Maybe I will go back through my mods and see what else is available because truth is, so far I am not liking any of my offshore colors an awful lot, including Brigantine.  I need something mildly muddy/grey/blue.

19.16


This is SeaGreen/DkBlue and while it's not as bad as the Ultramarine combo, it's almost as bad. 

As I was putting this together this evening, I was thinking of re-posting the same 4 Inshore options with the Brigantine, just to refresh memories and keep comparisons close to each other, but have decided against it.  First, I am going to try to post this tonite and with 16 pics to upload with my slow connection, that's a bit of work yet ahead of me.  Also, the MD just turned page 8. so this update will be on the same page as the last one, so it won't be hard for anyone to scroll back and make comparisons. 

So, what I would like to ask you all to do now is pick the ONE combo in each of the 5 groups you think will work best, given the following considerations (in order of importance):

1.)   The RL look/conditions of the area
2.)   Transitioning GW to PW realities, which are semi-severe and may require a lot of compromise of #1 above
3.)   Eye-candy (I do want this to be pretty, after all)

For example, a sample vote would be (Offshore/Inshore in all cases):

1.)   Brigantine/Overcast
2.)   Overcast/LtYellow
3.)   Turbid/Overcast
4.)   Steel/DkBlue
5.)   SeaGreen/LtYellow

I am going to be testing the Foreshore/Beaches next and would like to eliminate obvious losers from the combos we have seen so far.  I'm also going to ask that lurkers please step out of the shadows and vote.  Choosing the water mods for this region is very important, as it will play heavily to how I create a method for transitioning PW to GW and I'm going to be doing a LOT of that, which is why I am diverging from building in my region while I go through this process of defining the look of my game water.

I'm going to hold off exploring the last set of options for water while voting takes place.  But this issue is not going to go away and in the meantime, if anyone knows of a decent GW muddy water mod, please let me know, as so far NOTHING I am testing for Offshore really thrills me very much. 

Lora/LD

[thundercrack83]

Congratulations, lora



...the city by the electronic bay...


The Staff

[ecoba]

 Congrats, Lora!!!/b]
You Got Something Special, OSITM!!!!

Yay, you deserved this! RSF is a wonderful MD!!!

Ethan

[metarvo]

Congratulations on OSITM, Lora!    You have shown true attention to detail, and the result is a great MD.

As for the water, I would go with Turbid/LtYellow, but that's just my preference.

[jimbo_jj]

You know, I've never really looked too much into this MD until now  . I have to say, you're being very thorough. Keep it up!

As for my preferences, I like the steel/overcast combo the best but I also like the overcast/overcast specifically for the purpose of recreating San Francisco (Hey, that's the name of the MD! ).

-James

[Tomas Neto]

  Lora, congrats for this award!!!  Your MD is in OSITM section now!!! 

[mayorfabz]

First of all, kudos on the OSITM. Your endeavour truly is of special interest.
Next for the vote: (jeeze I sound like those TV anchors for the Eurovision Song Contest)
1. Overcast / overcast
2. Overcast / Lt. Yellow
3. Turbid / Overcast
4. Steel / Lt. Yellow
5. Steel / Overcast
Good luck on figuring which will be the best pick.
Fabien

[Battlecat]

Just going to take a couple moments to congratulate you on earning the OSITM!  You've certainly earned it with your attention to detail. 

Also, the first and third shots are certainly my favorites from todays updates.  Good luck choosing them, it's a tough choice! 

[cody426]

Hi Lora,

     Maybe I am too late, but for the watermod I think Brigantine offshore and Overcast inshore fit well for the region.

Disc Golf (I just call it Disc) is played by throwing the disc (much like a frisbee) at a pin.  The pin is a basically a metal basket with chains on it so the disc doesn't just bounce out when hit.  I think most just call the basket "the basket" but for some reason those I have played with have always called it a pin, so that's what I call it.  There are different disc's used for different purposes, Drivers & Flyers (long rang), putters, and rollers (people actually roll them on the ground like a tire towards the pin).  To put you just don't throw it as hard...   

The game itself is like golf, a par 4 means you have 4 throws to get the disc into the basket and score even, 3 throws gets a birdie (-1) and 5 gets the boogie (+1) and so on...  at the end of the game you add up the scores and the lowest score wins, however my friends and I rarely keep score.  For me it is a good reason to go walk around and throw things on a sunny day.  The number of holes varies, most I have played are 18, but the one closest to my house is 12.  I just play the first nine usually, then get to walking back home.

Most Disc Golf courses are smaller than golf courses; they tend to be packed into city parks (at least here in Oregon).  I have been to one that I thought was huge, but compared to a full size golf course it was still smaller.  The holes usually aren't as long, and they sometimes cross over each other, putting me in the line of fire when a stray disc is in the air.  I'm sure there are larger ones out there though.  They don't keep the fairway clear with lush green grass, and there really is no "green" around the pin.  Often I am digging in the bushes trying to find my disc that did not follow orders.  They are popular here; every town I have lived in has one (all in Oregon) and where I live currently has two.

here is the wiki page on it, you can see some pics of the "pins".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_golf

I thought once I saw on the STEX that someone had made pins (baskets) and pads (square concrete slabs to throw from) so one could make thier own course, but a quick search did not reveal anything.

looking forward to more
-cody 

[calibanX]

Lora

I'm not surprised in the least at your OSITM. Very well deserved. Your efforts are making for an awesome MD.

And as for the water mods, whenever I see photos of San Francisco Bay it always seems soooo blue. My monitor at work is not the greatest so I can't see some of the subtle differences in those mods you're comparing but I'm tending to lean toward the bluer mods and away from the greens. Try lining those shorelines with trees too and see if that gives you another feeling. You'll get some contrast with those dark trees and your water mods.

Happy modding!

Geoff

[Albus of Garaway]

This is probably one of the most deserved OSITM awards I've seen given. You've been causing quite a stir, Lora, and it's all be very positive!

-Jason