A question about BRT WIMPS

[FrankU]

Dear BSC team,

Last week I wanted to use the BRT WIMPS seaport lots. But at placing them on the shores I found some strange things. You can see on the picture below that the crane is half way down the lot and there is nothing on the quay.



But after placing the lot on land completely I see the crane is OK and the quay is full of props.



So, I thought, what is going on here?

I opened the LE and took a look.
Well, to make a long story short: I found out that on some lots the treshold value was 90, but should be 0.
So I edited all the lots and changed the values to 0. Now placing of the lots is OK.

But by doing this I found out some strange things.

First of all there seem to be some missing props.

In LE I see this:



The prop does not have a name. Usually this means that I forgot a dependency. So I checked out the neccessary dependecies. I found these lists:

Dependecies list in the included ReadMe:

Essentials:
BSC Essentials
BSC Mega Texture Pack

Prop Packs:
BSC MEGA Props - JES Vol01
jes_PerkinsProps_BSC
BSC MEGA Props – gascooker  Vol01
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01
BSC MEGA Props – SG Vol01
BSCBATProps RT WFK Vol02
bldgprop_vol1-SimCity 4 Building as Props
jes_family_industrials.dat - included
GC_Ind_Props_family.dat - included

Then I checked on the LEX and found this list:

BSC Essentials
BSC Mega Textures Vol01
BSC MEGA Props - JES Vol01
BSC MEGA Props – gascooker Vol01
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01
BSC MEGA Props – SG Vol01
BSC MEGA Props RT WFK Vol01
bldgprop_vol1-SimCity 4 Building as Props
jes_family_industrials.dat - included
GC_Ind_Props_family.dat - included

But after having checked all 47 files in the reader I came up with this list:

bldgprop_vol1.dat
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Gascooker Vol01.dat
BSC Mega Props - JES Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - RT WFK Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - SG Vol 01.dat
BSC Mega Props jestarr Vol02.dat
BSCBATProps RT MineCorp Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04.dat
GC_Ind_Props_family.dat
jes_family_industrials.dat
PEG_CDK--IND_205.dat
PEG_CDKN_SubmarineBase_RESOURCE.dat

The Reader did not name these, but I added them anyway:
BSC Textures Vol 01.dat
BSC_Essentials.dat

I put all these files into my plugins folder. I made a special pluginsfolder for just this project and threw all plugins out except the BRT WIMPS and these dependencies.
Still missing props!
The missing props are found in LE in these lots:
1x2_straight
1x3_straight
1x4_stairs
1x4_straight
2x2_ramp
Then I stopped searching, I guess I made my point.

Here are the pictures as I see them in game.




The most righthand prop shows the treshold problem.

So my first question is: who can tell me more about these mysteryprops? The place on the lots suggest that it must be some kind of vehicle.

And by experimenting I found out that the dependencies list is quite different than I expected.
Also some lots are named incorrectly: they are called 2x4, but measure actually 3x4, like the Cable depot.

Ah, yes, there is one thing I should say: I did the editing in my own copies of the lots. What I did was open all the lots in LE, rename them (put FvU_ in front of the original name) and save them.
Then I edited the treshold value. I also removed the maxis container effect, because I thought it was ugly and did not fit with the beautiful props. I put in some GC containers from the GC_Ind_Props_family.dat instead.

My second question: On Simtropolis I found the old thread that concerns these lots. Not too hard to find, because there was a link in the included readme.
In that thread I saw this picture with a pier. I never found that on STEX or LEX. Is it available somewhere? I like it.

[sim-al2]

#1 It's part of the SNM.

#2 I've never been able to use these wonderful docks because... well I can never get the docks to appear, even in the LE and with all dependencies!

[CasperVg]

I've used them for quite awhile now, and I haven't noticed such issues, except for the fact that some of the icons are indeed noted as "2x4", but are actually "3x4". Looking back at some of the pictures at my MD, it seems I'm having some of the issues you have too, namely the sinking props. That issue only appeared with the first port I created, since I used a different approach to build it in the second part.



Oh, that pier is the SNM SNCG Cutter Station (LEX) 

[BarbyW]

The missing props are from the jes_family_industrials and/or GC family but both those are now incorporated into BSC MEGA Props Misc Vol02. I shall have a look at these lots and update them on the LEX as soon as I can.

[FrankU]

@Casper, thanks!
And yes: the issue is with only some lots, because the majority of them already has the treshold value on 0.

@Barbyw: I have both of these files in my dependencies, because they are part of the download. So either there must be something wrong with the files themselves or there is some misunderstanding or miscommunication and I have the wrong files. But as I see you are going to look into it I'll wait for the answer.
Will you post a message when you are ready? Thanks.

[BarbyW]

I have checked through all the WIMPs lots with only a minimal set of plugins.
These are:
bldgprop_vol1.dat
BSC Essentials.dat
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Gascooker Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - JES Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Misc Vol02.dat
BSC MEGA Props - RT WFK Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - SG Vol 01.dat
BSC Mega Props jestarr Vol02.dat
BSC Textures Vol 01.dat
BSCBATProps RT MineCorp Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04.dat
All the props showed up and the one you appear to be missing is a set of Maxis props for which I made new exemplars and put into a family. I have no idea how you can be missing those but if you place just the above into plugins you should see them.
As for the placement of the lots, these are intended to be placed with the edge of the dock at the edge of the sea not over the sea. Whilst testing/checking today I took some screenies.
Here is how I had the land prepared ready. It is actually a bit higher that I would have liked but it serves the purpose. The land must be flat and have a straight edge long the sea. Normally I would have it a little lower and not showing the grid lines.



I thn plopped 4 lots along the edge with the dock overhanging the edge of the land. As you can see there is a black shadow under the lots.




When I bulldozed that set of lots you can see how the land has dropped.




I then placed a set of lots correctly with the edge at the edge of the land. This is how they were made to place.

[FrankU]

Dear BarbyW,

I replaced the outdated jes_family_industrials.dat and GC_Ind_Props_family.dat by the BSC MEGA Props - Misc Vol02.dat. Then I found the props in LE and in game. Then I deleted the two PEG dependencies that were "found"  by the Reader.
This I did in a sandbox region with only the dependencies you named in your last post and the original WIMPS lots and my own edited versions. Nothing else. So the props showed up and it worked. Everything looked OK.

Then I did the same replacement in my game region with about 1,7GB of plugins. The props did not show up!
Then I moved the BSC MEGA Props - Misc Vol02.dat into a ZZZ_Plugins directory, so it loaded as one of the last. Now I saw the props. Somehow these props apparently conflict with some other file. Please don't ask me which.... I really have no clue .

So my guess is now that somehow these props were not part of the two included dependecies (jes and GC families), but are included in the MEGA pack. But also that there is some kind of conflict with another file, which overwrites the prop families with empty information .

In the pictures below you can see the props!

Another thing: it is really a riddle to me how the Reader could sum up the two PEG dependencies. Do you have any idea?

On harbour placement: I always terraform my harbours with Wouanagaine's Terraformer, using the "Make harbour" tool. So the height should be OK.
The way you placed the lots will indeed always show all props. But there are two disadvantages in my opinion.
First: the quay does not look so nice, because you can see the rock texture under water, which is not very realistic.
And second: it is not possible to place ships next to them.
The way I use the lots, you can place separately avalable lots directly next to the quay. You can see here that I placed an scow batted by PEG and edited by VeTRam (he was so kind to send them to me).

Placement on land


And placement as overhanging lot


As last: you can see that GC's crane jumps over the edge of the quay on the inland side and you can see that the lots do not exactly line up in both the original and the edited lots (in my lots I have not moved any props, only replaced Maxis container effect).

[BarbyW]

PEG dependencies will show up quite often if you have his assorted packs in place when you use SC4Tool as he frequently mods Maxis props and includes the exemplars in his dats. If you do not have his dats in plugins you will see the original Maxis props and they will show as Maxis props in SC4Tool. There have been many reported accounts of false dependencies as a result of this way of working.
BSC MEGA Props Misc Vol02 only contains the prop exemplars for families and does not include the models. You always need the prop packs listed in addition to the Misc Vol02. I have that file in my BSCProps folder and have no problems with the props showing when I have my full plugins of 3GB in use. I have no idea why you seem to have a problem with that but it may be that you have an outdated pack somewhere. With regard to the GC crane floating around, that is a result of placing it at 0.3(?) above ground level. Props are rarely stable at any height above ground level and that is something that cannot be avoided without having the whole unit BATted. Ripptide did that for the Navy lots and also made some offset cranes but they are blue for the SNM Navy and were made long after this set was released.
With all waterfront lots there are problems of one sort or another and it is something we have to put up with.

[Gaston]

I too have recently noticed the "sinking" effect.    I thought it was something to do with some new mod I may have added.    Guess it still might be.   LOL


---Gaston

[FrankU]

BarbyW,
Well, I do have a lot of PEG's files: in fact almost all of his seaport and coastal related stuff.
As I have installed these in my directory "Pegprod" and the Mega pack is now installed in a ZZZ_directory it apparently overwrites PEG's work. I hope this does not affect his work in my game... I'll see.

The fact that the crane jumps over the edge has indeed a relation with height level, but also with the propfamily it is in. If I cycle through all props in that family (with N-key) I see that the five or six props do not have their base exactly on the same spot. So I cannot place the propfamily on a crane track... I guess there is nothing we can do about it. It is just a matter of placing the prop on the right spot.

And yes, indeed, nothing will ever be perfect, so small alignment problems will occur always. I can live with it.

[BarbyW]

I have been looking at these in the X_Tool Lot Editor and although there is a snap to grid feature which works well for most props it does not work for these dock sections as they are not all the same footprint. I may, however, revise the whole set as there are now more offset props available but that is not imminent.
When lot editing or using SC4Tool I always remove most of Peg's stuff and only have anything that I really need or know I have used - for example the Navy personnel for the SNM Navy waterfront lots. That way I no longer have a false dependency problem.

[FrankU]

The funny thing is, I had a completely clean Plugins folder with only the original WIMPS and the named dependecies. Nothing else. Then I edited these files and saved them with another name.
Then I started searching for the missing props by loading the files that I had edited into the Reader. Then I saw these funny PEG dependecies.
I am not sure how the Reader finds the names of the neccessary dependency files.
Do props refer to a certain dependency file, so that the Reader only needs to display the named refence? I think so. Because that is the only way I can think of that the reader can show a reference to a file that is not in de folder.
Anyway, my problem seems to be solved now. I am just curious if anything strange will come out on PEG's lots.

And about the placement of props: As an architect I am used to draw with CAD programmes where I can edit placement of object with cöordiantes or with the help of vertical an horizontal references. The LE is in that sense a bit uncontrollable. Pity, but what can we do about it?

[BarbyW]

Reader uses the LD file generated by LE to read the dependencies. It is used on the official exchange and the original dats had them removed, I think.

The LE is in that sense a bit uncontrollable. Pity, but what can we do about it?

Wait for wounagaine to finish the X_Tool

[FrankU]

Wait for wounagaine to finish the X_Tool

Oh yes! You may laugh at me! I do indeed wait until this mythical tool is released to us humble men. 
Might it help if I build a shrine in my backyard to worship his accomplishments? 

[BarbyW]

Might it help if I build a shrine in my backyard to worship his accomplishments?

It might but who knows the wonders that is Wou.

[gartenriese]

I have checked through all the WIMPs lots with only a minimal set of plugins.
These are:
bldgprop_vol1.dat
BSC Essentials.dat
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Gascooker Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - JES Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Misc Vol02.dat
BSC MEGA Props - RT WFK Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - SG Vol 01.dat
BSC Mega Props jestarr Vol02.dat
BSC Textures Vol 01.dat
BSCBATProps RT MineCorp Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04.dat

I'm sorry I'm reopening this thread, but I couldn't find an answer anywhere else.
I started a new city with just those plugins mentioned above and build some BRT WIMPS, and when I try to load that city I get a CTD. How come? I don't have any other plugins. I saved the city with just a few WIMPS, and it loaded fine. I added a couple more and then I got a CTD. So it has something to do with a specific WIMP, right? I only built the four tiles deep ones.

[jmyers2043]

I have checked through all the WIMPs lots with only a minimal set of plugins.
These are:
bldgprop_vol1.dat
BSC Essentials.dat
BSC MEGA Props - DAE Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Gascooker Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - JES Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - Misc Vol02.dat
BSC MEGA Props - RT WFK Vol01.dat
BSC MEGA Props - SG Vol 01.dat
BSC Mega Props jestarr Vol02.dat
BSC Textures Vol 01.dat
BSCBATProps RT MineCorp Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol01.dat
CSX MEGA Props - Vol04.dat

I'm sorry I'm reopening this thread, but I couldn't find an answer anywhere else.
I started a new city with just those plugins mentioned above and build some BRT WIMPS, and when I try to load that city I get a CTD. How come? I don't have any other plugins. I saved the city with just a few WIMPS, and it loaded fine. I added a couple more and then I got a CTD. So it has something to do with a specific WIMP, right? I only built the four tiles deep ones.

The files you list, orther than BSC essentials, are merely prop files. The rule of thumb is that a prop will not cause a CTD. They are simply visible in the game, or not. What else have you tried? Can it be duplicated in another new city in a new test region?

I'll do some investigating. Have a look at this thread in the mean time. Especially Ripplejets response about mid way down.

http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9178.msg282642#msg282642



- Jim

[gartenriese]

Thanks for your reply!
I did some testing, and I found the reason for the CTDs.
I have nothing in my plugin folders besides
- Background3D*.png (from 1 to 5)
- BSC Essentials.dat (14.651KB, 10/8/2008)
- BRTWIMPSx4.dat (206KB, 4/28/2009)
I started a new city with just flat land. Now, when I plop "BRT WIMPS Storage Depot" and save the city, go back to regionview and enter the city again, I get a CTD.
In the icon it says "2x4 storage" but actually it is 3x4 tiles big.

Can you (or someone else) reproduce this?

[jmyers2043]

Can you (or someone else) reproduce this?

Yes, I can duplicate the problem. The Cable Depot will cause a CTD when saving and re-entering my test city. I also plopped every lot EXCEPT for the cable depot and got another CTD so it appears there is at least one more problematic lot.

I'll put a temporary lock on the WIMP file and try to sort things out.

- Jim

[Grneyes]

I also had a CTD when opening a city with the cable depot just today. Thank your for looking into this for us.