Bringing Back Karma

[Haljackey]

I've been thinking as of late this community has really settled in and the need for some restrictions posed on members since this site's founding can be relaxed a bit. One of these includes the karma system, or the ability to add (or take away) reputation to another member.

This ability was stripped sometime in 2007 due to neglectance by some members. I believe back then you needed to have 100 posts or so and good standing in the community to use this feature in a certain quantity. Nowadays only site staff and trusted members have the ability to use this feature.

Now that some time has passed (5 years!), would it be plausible to return the karma ability back to these original prerequisites or perhaps something similar? I think the community has earned it.

I look forward to hearing what all of you have to say on the matter.

Thanks and all the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)

[CasperVg]

I am in favour of the current system. I'm afraid bringing it back to the original prerequisites would devalue the karma system quite a bit and probably will re-introduce the problems the old system had, and while most of that can be solved by mods, it's something I personally wouldn't want to spend time on. Entirely personal opinion though.

[Tarkus]

I think this is a worthy discussion to have.  I personally have been in favor of a karma system, as long as there's checks and balances to prevent it from being abused.  The abuse of it got particularly problematic back in 2007, and that prompted the lockdown to staff-only.  We have actually relaxed the system a little in the past few months, and have gradually started granting karma privileges to select regular members.  The old post-count threshold was problematic, so I don't anticipate we'd return to that approach, though I am fairly certain that the group of members who will have karma privileges will expand into the future under our current approach.

-Alex

[art128]

As Alex said recently more people have been given the ability to give or take karma from members. I think it's a good thing, that way we have more opinions on the matter.

But it has a limit. I personally believe giving everyone that capacity will result in a total chaos of the Karma system. Give some people will use it fully on their friends and will not use it to valorize members that did something good for the community. I fear that and I can bet my left arm this will happen if the karma system point is open to everyone.

I also agree with Casper regarding the work it will give to the moderator. They already have a big amount of work, so charging them with the " Karma system security and prevention " Will only make their work harder to do.

But an idea if we put the Karma system back to the old ways, even for a test period of time, would be to create something as I said just before "Karma system security and prevention team" or something like that. It'll be a team composed of regular loyal members who are in charge of regulating the karma system and sanction any abuse. But this of course only if the Karma system is taking the old ways.

Just my opinion as well.

[noahclem]

I would oppose any sudden rush to change things. The expanding of k-point enabled people is great and it sounds great to continue expansion as was mentioned. It seems there were a couple years of real "karma drought" and too me it's a bit unfair to the people that really shined during that time to earn their points (Lowkee33 & jondor come to mind but there are certainly others) suddenly have them inflated away. In the last year it feels like there's been a real increase in K-points, CMLs, etc that had almost died out and that's awesome. But if we're already going in the right direction does it make sense to make a drastic change?

[mike3775]

It needs to be tweaked a little, but it shouldn't go back to a free for all(I admit I was not around for those days but I have been on boards as ADMIN where there were free for all's on Karma type things). 

One site I was admin at, used Karma points as a way to gain rank and more privileges, and it was abused to high hell and back, because if you needed 100 Karma points to get to the next rank, people would give a karma point for saying "I agree" on a post and not elaborate.  I spent many an hour going through karma points looking for BS points, and I sure wouldn't want to see anyone here doing that, especially when the ones doing it, may be involved in on going projects right now.

[MandelSoft]

I wouldn't go for the Free For All method too. I see that on SimTropolis and often the people with the most karma are often the most frequent posters, no matter how big or significant or well-thought their contributions are. Therefore I'd like to keep the current system, but it's OK to spread it out over more entrusted members...

[Terring7]

I'm a member on a Greek forum as well. In this forum, everybody can add or remove karma points, but! If you're going to hit "like" or "dislike", you must also give the reason. You can't just hit a button, you must explain why. This method not only discourage any kind of trolling, but it's also useful for the moderators.

Just my 2 cents

[rooker1]

 First let me start by saying that the Karma Point System was and still is very important to Jeroni and it was him that was the most disappointed to how this system was abused many years ago from all levels, from the newest member all the way up to the staff.  People were getting multiply points for the same action/reason, some not really noteworthy and some members even handed out negative ones as a joke.
A fact - Karma points have always needed a reason, just look at the Karma Point Log near the bottom of the forums page. You can easily see the last three awarded points and if you click on the pie circle to the left you should be able to see all the Karma points handed out since 2008.
Karma points were to be handed out as a disciplinary action but primarily as a reward for great things to those that show they have worked extra hard in what they have done.  Now this includes the new member that may be having a hard time with the game and has a break through that we have noticed and the game has become that much easier for him/herself and maybe even helped out a few others as well.  It also goes all the way up to the members that make an exciting new discovery, made a new modd/BAT....or new whatever, but not every time for the exact same reason every time. (Hope that makes sense).  For instance....Alex (Tarkus) should not get a Karma point for every new thing he does for the NAM, this is what he does......I should not get a Karma point for every new update I make in my MD.  And this is exactly what started to happen all those years ago.  I remember someone gave a Karma point to someone for a mediocre reason and that person gave one back as a thanks.  This is not how Jeroni envisioned the system should work and he turned it off to ALL.  Some time later it was turned back on to Admins with such guidelines and rules as he put in place.  Since then there have been a few deserving members who now have this privilege with the thought in the back of their minds that it would be taken away instantly if they were to abuse it.

I can tell you all with the utmost certainty the way it is set up today, this will not change any time soon.  The Admins may choose to include more members into this privilege more often going forward, but this system will never be for all to use ever again.

If anyone thinks they or someone else deserves this privilege, feel free to PM myself or any other Admin with name and reason and we will discuss this and get back to you as soon as possible.


Robin

[NCGAIO]

Obviously everyone likes to see their actions in support of a forum  the one community   be recognized although  i never really paid much attention to this.


Of course, if a system is to distinguish contributor from other visitors this should really use some parameters.


This should especially appreciate those who turn their attention to answering the questions and issues as well as those that provide tutorials and innovations to the game in this case.


Unfortunately it freely assign any participant really devalues ​​the intent recognition for just being really abused.


Situations such as on another site known where newly arrived have  triple of  points compared to the number of posts.

[Haljackey]

Great inputs everyone, thanks for sharing!

It seems as though most of you are against going back to the way things were, and for good reasons. This has given me a lot to think about as it also seems many of you are in favor of changing the current system.

Now I wouldn't call these 'proposals', but would any of these be a good way to improve the karma system?

1. Give out a limited quantity of karma points a member can give (or take away) to well-established members every now and then. These would not be stackable.
-For example, say members were allowed to give 3 karma points a month but they only use one. They would only go up to 3 the next month instead of 5.

2. Set up some sort of application form that members can submit if they're interested in using the karma system. Staff/committee members would then decide weather or not to approve said member. A quantity of K-points could also be issued. Abuse of the system would result in loss of privileges and/or further action.

3. Come up with new 'ground rules' before members can issue karma points. This could relate to post count, status in a team, etc.


Also, keep in mind I am not comparing SC4D's karma system to Simtropolis' reputation system. That site is more associated to the 'like' system on Facebook or the upvote/downvote system on Reddit with no dislike function. Karma could also be limited to one per post to avoid duplicate K-points.

Again, just thinking aloud here and not saying something has to be done. Thanks for your feedback!
-Ryan (Haljackey)

[rooker1]

2. Set up some sort of application form that members can submit if they're interested in using the karma system. Staff/committee members would then decide weather or not to approve said member. A quantity of K-points could also be issued. Abuse of the system would result in loss of privileges and/or further action.

This is also what I am thinking and have suggestted in my post above.
It may not be public knowledge to everyone here at SC4D, but anyone can already send a PM with the persons name and good reason why this memebr should recieve a Karma Point to any staff member.  In every case I can remember the Karma Point has been given out with the requesters name in part of the reason in the Karma Log.  At least that is the way I do it.  This system has been working for a few years now and I think pretty successfully.  When I became an Admin, I looked for good reasons to hand out Karma Points, especially to those that didn't have any.  I have awarded a lot of Karma Points on others behalf and I am sure that all the Staff members are very willing to do the same.

The staff has already started talking about the Karma Point system and how it can be improved, but I am sure the idea that Hal and I are talking about is the way we will keep on running the system except as far as I can tell Karma Points can not be handed out like Hal is suggestting.  A member can either work the system or not.

Robin

[noahclem]

I would think that most people are aware that one can request a K-point to be given to another member through an admin, etc. I've requested a number through others and the admins, etc have been nothing but helpful. I would say that until recently it seems like more K-points were given out through somebody than by somebody. If you check the karma logs or people's reputation you see it everywhere.

Barring a situation that seems abusive I think any member in good standing can feel pretty confident that if they see someone do something that they think deserves special recognition they're karma suggestion will be honored. If you're not sure, as Robin says, just ask 

If there's a formal application system I'd imagine it would be very hard to turn any applicant down, unless you had some kind of relatively strict criteria, and then you're getting back into that "post count" territory that was part of the problem system in the beginning.

I don't want to sound negative, scared of change, or down on anybody's ideas. The integrity of the Karma system is something I do care about though--I remember the first time I got a K-point I was really pleasantly surprised. My little mushroom eating hedgehog got a bit of extra strut in his step, and I made my girlfriend and who knows how many other people that couldn't care less about SC4 listen to me tell all about it    If some others feel like that than that's awesome and I hope they continue to be able to in the future.

[mike3775]

For instance....Alex (Tarkus) should not get a Karma point for every new thing he does for the NAM, this is what he does......I should not get a Karma point for every new update I make in my MD.

I can agree and disagree with giving a point for someone like Alex(Tarkus).  In a way I agree he shouldn't, since he is part of a team and has been doing this for years, but I also disagree on those very same reasons, because he is doing this on his own for free and spending long hours doing it as well.  To me, anyone who has been working on the elevated networks the past couple months/years deserve to be rewarded for the time and effort put in, along with any person involved in the future expansions that tie in as well, because without them, the game would be stagnant and they are doing it on their own time out of love for the users and the game.  Just because "it is what he does", does not mean he should not be rewarded as well.  Would you appreciate someone saying "well you did a great job and saved us this much money the past year, but we are not going to give you anything since its your job and its what you do?".  I bet 99% of the people here would not like being told that.

I do like that I can recommend a point for someone and then a staff member says agree or disagree though, so it does work well in that aspect.

And yes an update to a MD is not kharma worthy, that I can agree with.  But I do think some exceptions could be made to that as well, especially if its an update that is truly unique(which there have been a few recently).  In the "show me your intersection" thread, someone made an awesome common looking interchange, but the details put into that common interchange with surroundings and tree's and other things, made that interchange stand out better than others who have built the same type of interchange, that should be rewarded IMO.

[rooker1]

mike3775, I think you may be missing the point. 
Too many Karma Points were being handed out for the same reasons and/or wrong reasons.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the NAM Team will be getting a lot of Karma Points when something new comes out.....but a point to each member when this happens, maybe even an extra one.  I think the mentality all those years ago wasn't who deserves the Karma Point, but I think many were thinking they deserved to hand them out.  Jeroni (and the rest of the Staff) does not want Karma Points to get watered down and over used, than they are no longer have the meaning.  As I have said earlier, when a newbie has a break through of some sort, that is Karma worthy, at least the first time and it's just the same to the member that continually knocks out top notch BATs and/or modds.  Now if that same new member has a break through every week, he is not getting a Karma Point each time, just as that BATTer or Modder should not get a Karma Point for every new thing they do.  And believe me, the members that BAT and Modd, they do it for fun, praise and at the least the possiblity of a surprise Karma Point.  Let's take SimGoober as an example with over 300 BATs, should his Karma be 300 plus for every BAT and all the help he has given over the years?
We, the Staff don't want to make up rules and guidlines because all the points that have been handed out may not fit in the criteria but at the same time we thought was Karma worthy.  Situations moving forward may also fall The Karma Point System was and still is to be fun and as a special award.  This site is well known to be a serious place for memebers to come share ideas and learn, and not a overly social type site.  This is why the Karma Point System is so important to Jeroni.
The Karma Point System has been working fairly well for the past years and in my opinion slowly improving as well with the new members that have been granted to use this privilege.  I expect at least one or two new members a month going forward and we'll see how it goes from there.

Please don't over analyse what I am saying here.  Just know that we are doing the best we can and look forward to seeing who will be added next.

Robin

[Haljackey]

I just want to make sure members are properly rewarded for their effort. That is what this all comes down to, and that is the purpose of the karma system.

With the ability to issue karma in the 'hands of the few', I feel that some work/posts that are karma-worthy may be overlooked by these members as there are not enough eyes to spot everything. In a perfect world, the margin of error would go down if more members had the ability to issue karma since there would be more eyes.

The recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.
-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.

Keeping the integrity of the system is key, but I feel the ability to issue karma should be more accessible to members than it is now. That's the whole reason I started this discussion.

All the best,
-Ryan (Haljackey)

[art128]

The recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.
-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.

... Except for that you can ask a Moderator/admin.

[rooker1]

The recent developments in this thread has got me thinking on another plausible approach. Instead of having members apply for karma-giving status, why not set up a form or a thread dedicated to issuing karma. Members here would indicate who they think deserves a karma point, where that work/post is found and reason to argue why they think it is deserved.

I like this idea, let me talk it over with the Staff.

-Either that or make an announcement stating that all members can freely PM a staff member regarding issuing karma on their behalf.

All members can do this now.

[rooker1]

It is now official and added to the News Ticker at the top of the furoms page.

All SC4D members can freely PM any Staff member regarding issuing Karma Points to a deserving member on their behalf.

[Kergelen]

I think the system is generally correct but may have defects. It seems to me quite right that only some members/admins can give K-point, or any member on request through the administrators. However I think it could be a few more members who can give K-points to prevent the overlooked posts like Haljakey said (I understand that new adessions like Noahclem, Girafe, art128 and Haljackey go in this direction.).

On the other hand the criteria to a K-point sometimes seem a little confused. Especially when you're newbie it is difficult to find a rule on the criteria below. For example an user can receive a K-point to help with one post to another user and another user who is helping others often do not get any K-point. This is a bit disconcerting especially for new members as I was. Some posts before rooker explain the reason of diferent criteria and is good to know the position of admins about it. Of course if you do some kind of post and you know you will receive a K-point, are not a surprise and lose a little excitement.

Sorry if I didn't contribute with new ideas, but I wanted to resume a bit my ideas although it is difficult for me to express it in English.

Anyway this is an interesting topic.  I have known a bit more of SC4D History

Edit: Sometime ago, I was thinking why the members who enter his MD to the HoF, and who win the Picture Competition of all the year don't receive a K-point?. When someone (only 2 users a year) achieving this it means that has made ​​a great contribution to the community.