SimFox's Pixel Torture Chamber

[callagrafx]

(By the way, if that overhang is semi-transparent, you'll get a black background on it... but there's a workaround - you'd have to edit the alpha maps so they show up)

Much easier to BAT a base, like a series of steps...then the transparency poses no issues.

[SimFox]

hm... that is very interesting discussion...
I was as Caffagrafx suggesting planning to do a base; well not a base but steps some lawn, things like that. And in this case it would be sufficient, but there are situations when this isn't an option, for instance when doing a building with large glass crown, that is a common design element in the moder buildings. I'm not scarred of black, as it wouldn't be there anyway with the export method I us, but to be able to see through such a glass real Simcity the structure is standing in would be huge bonus.
So, I wonder, is it enough to simply have NON white alpha for this to work in game? or what else should be done?

[callagrafx]

I believe Cogeo managed it for his superb stations..real transparent roofs so you could see the automata. He'd be the best person to ask.

[Madeira aka Constantina]

very nice indeed.

[Diggis]

Simfox, this might help you some:

editing FSh files

[Shadow Assassin]

I'm not scarred of black, as it wouldn't be there anyway with the export method I us, but to be able to see through such a glass real Simcity the structure is standing in would be huge bonus.

Export method or no, the problem lies with how SC4 does the FSHes. So it doesn't matter how you render, you'll get that black background (or whatever colour you use. I recommend a neutral grey so it doesn't have black outlines).

So, I wonder, is it enough to simply have NON white alpha for this to work in game? or what else should be done?

Alpha maps are greyscale. The lighter the grey, the more opaque it is. You will need to experiment with it to make sure it all works.

[SimFox]

I know that alpha maps are greyscale; but they could also be set to work in Black& White mode - when something is below set brightness is it treated as transparent and above as solid. This is useful to lighten the computational burden when no other state (solid or 100% transparent ) is needed.
Thinking how SC4 uses masks it wouldn't be to far fetched to imagine this sort of solution. And I guess then need to edit some blending (if I remember correctly) values in SC4Model file is just because of that. But game can handle transparencies that is a fact because night views are applied on top of tinted day ones using exactly this method, although the masks aren't 256 shades of grey but something like 16... Wonder if it is possible to set that value higher to get better images...
I also wonder if that tedium of manually resetting values could be automated - little script of something of sorts that would look for set property and set it value as desired. In that case it with mask editing it would be possible to get something like entrance overhangs , bas stops etc to be "semi-transparent" in one piece. For other architectural glass elements those that involve the modeled interior under the roof this method, of course wouldn't work, but at any rate it isn't really needed, that is if we speak of realism. Any enclosed interior would be some much darker then outside (during day) that you wouldn't be EVER able to see through. Glass will always be reflective to the degree making effectively non-transparent unless it is at totally right angle to the view and even then I doubt that brightness differences between outside and inside will be small enough to be able to see something inside.
Please tell me if anything of this makes any sense to you guys...

[SimFox]

Bump Bump

Coming the full circle!
This building was my first attempt at 3D modeling about 1,5 years ago. Beijing Silver Tower.
That time around I had to abandon it mainly due to being unable to solve the riddle of the totally reflective gazing of the structure.
Now With experience gained by working on some of mine and other's projects etc, etc, I've felt taht I MUST bring this one to life in SimCity it is my sort of homage to my early days enthusiasm... oh those were the days....
Anyway here is first Mat tests comments and critique is welcome , as always:






and a blast from the past (1,5 years past):

[cameron1991]

That was your first attempt at 3D modeling?  That looks amazing! 

[SimFox]

the last one  is from 1,5 years ago, the upper 4 are from today...

[Antoine]

I prefer the new than the first version  excellent work of course !

[jeronij]

The model itself is again a master piece  . A great progress since 1.5 years  ¡¡¡

However I am not sure if I like the reflections this time....  ... one can see too many buildings there... like if the building was on the top of a hill, over the city centre. But this can be a very subjective opinion, because I am not sure about you used for the reflection... ( I guess a SC4 downtown picture...  )

Seeing this technique gives me some ideas about reflectios that I will try to use sometime. But I do specially love the geometry 

[toxicpiano]

I have to agree with JRJ about the reflections.

[SimFox]

Jeronij:
Sorry, but I don't follow the whole on the top of the hill thing...
What exactly do you mean by that?
Actually putting some Big City SC4 shot as a reflection map may be a good idea, as it should bring in more color compared to the regular shots of real cities which from the top normally look pretty monochrome (well not exactly but there is heavy predominance of grey and various shades of beige with black and white.

[Diggis]

I think the issue is that the reflections are a little specific.  You can make out actual buildings, which means when you put it into a city, it will look funny if the buildings do not match.

[SimFox]

For that I can assure you that this is NOT the case...
First of all because of the jumble and distortions in reflections.
Second, because when you look now at the model on the black background you eye is automatically targeted on the information available and in this case it is pretty much the reflections. Once in a city the amount of distractions will be such that eye wouldn't be able to process all that.
Third how less specific could it be; what exactly does that level of specificity mean? Because again to do something about it one must understand in no uncertain terms what is and what is desired. then it is possible to find the ways to get there. But if starting and destination points are very vague then the possibility to find the path is rather dim.
I for one don't think that they are too specific, or to be precise (since I'm asking it from other s I must do it myself) they are as unspecific as I believe possible in order to maintain the illusion of real reflection. If for instance as some on other places suggest one should blur them that that wouldn't look like glass anymore. It to add to the reflection map "aerial perspective" thins - that effect when saturation goes down with distance and the brightness levels equalize. it would again sit very well as the distance of those things reflected is just a couple of hundreds of meters. that must be pretty foggy or smoggy day for it to occur. Plus controlling the effect, as it couldn't be for realism sake applier as a simple gradient is rather troublesome and effect would be very negligible and be ruined by two factors . the same eyes inability to focus on things like that in a SC normal settings and the quite noticeable quality reduction when rendered images are compressed into FSH.
BTW does anyone know of ways to make FSH files other then through FSHTool, I mean the way where one can control the compression rates and quality.

I'll try to export the building as it is now and post here in-game shots so what the judgement could be done on how it sits in game rather on plain background.

[callagrafx]

I think what Jeroni is trying to say is the reflection angle looks wrong...you can make out rooftops of buildings that appear much higher than this one. The reflection map appears to be an aerial shot whereas the angle of orthography that is the game view would suggest any reflections would be of the ground and the bases of surrounding (taller) buildings.

[SimFox]

well that's the limitations of th method...
I, to be hones don't see any way around it short of modeling the entire environment, but that is also has it draw backs. One being it will ineveitable be MORE specific. also issues with shadows and things like that will have to be dealt with. Unless some-one could come up with anything more original I think this is the only way to render mirror clad buildings. Some issues could be refined, of course as the image to be reflected, the properties of the reflective surfaces, but the very fact hat you gonna see mostly roofs is a set thing.

edit:
ok here they are
troubles with trible, pardon with reflections...







the thing is that distance effectively neutralizes the distortions in the reflections so they become more clear as you zoom out...
The shots above are made at Zoom4 and here is how it looks at Zoom5:


tower is clad with almost mirror like glass, take that into account

[jeronij]

I think what Jeroni is trying to say is the reflection angle looks wrong...you can make out rooftops of buildings that appear much higher than this one. The reflection map appears to be an aerial shot whereas the angle of orthography that is the game view would suggest any reflections would be of the ground and the bases of surrounding (taller) buildings.

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to explain with my poor and limited english    ( Thanks Cal  )

Simfox, you are trying things which are out of the posibilities of the game imo  ....  so it is normal that you find some troubles  . About your last pictures, I still think that the problem is the perspective in the texture you used for the reflexion, and the fact that any of the surrounding buildings have the reflections makes this more destacable.Also the reflection factor seems to be very high. The building looks like metal more than glass in some areas 

I am sure you will find a good solution for this situation, and who knows?, perhaps a new modelling standard for our community  .

[PaulvMontfort]

Why don't you make the reflections unrecognizable. Something like the Lippo Centre, I think that would look much better IMHO