SimFox's Pixel Torture Chamber

[SimFox]

Jeronij; Paul:
well because this one is glazed with very different glass then Lippo is. This is much more mirror like one. So it suppose to look like that - practically perfect mirror.
About angle...
I think you mixing wrong things here! ANGLE is independent of hight!so hight of the buildings is actually irrelevant. when you look at the sun and it is too bright you sometimes cover it with you hand - at that very moment the sun and your hand are at the same angle although Sun is, obviously, much higher.
You determination that buildings in the reflection are much higher is coming from actually studying it too much and counting floors. But consider alternative - if (and that is a very big IF - so big that it is practically impossible - I'll explain why later) the reflection at the glass/mirror wall would show in stead of roofs the walls of neighboring buildings -how would it look when buildings around are all small  - like in those shots? The contradictions would be MUCH stronger. And in scenes where it would look better - when tower is surrounded by tall buildings - well then most of it would be obscured anyway.
Now why it is almost impossible - well fro the same very reason - to show something but rooftops in the reflection those objects should be very close to the building but being so close they would obscure the most of it - so you wouldn't be able to see their reflections. So what-ever you turn it the ONLY refections that clouds and should be seen are those of roofs and generally something that much shorter. About ground - that is possible but it I afraid would be even less generic.
About Lippo - it's glass was FAR more transparent - the color there comes from that transparency  this glass is effectively a mirror even the sun directly shines on the tower you can not make out which roads of panes have openings behind them -ed are actual windows and which ate just cladding over the concrete wall.
Also the glass quality on this one seem to be significantly better then on Lippo. it actually have virtually NO distortions in reflections - I guess it is tempered and much thicker then one on Lippo that bands so easily. So my bump on panels is a bit of a stretch as is and making it stronger would be ridiculous.
Rotating the reflection map is a bit cumbersome. Even if it would be possible to find better fitting lines of sight they would be good for only ONE rotation and would need to be readjusted for another. And even then this would work then only with ONE side. Around corner everything would be screwed right there. anyway if anyone has any picture you think would make a good reflection map I'm wide open for suggestions!





notice the striped appearance of glazing on Lippo

[Andreas]

I think the main problem is not how the glass should look like, based on physical laws, but how it looks like with the SimCity 4 color pallet and the way Maxis chose their textures for the game. As much as I admire your efforts to make it look "perfect", most people here would like to see something that fits well into the game. This is why people use gradients and fake stuff, even if it looks not right compared to the real world. The same counts for your efforts with TruNite and similar stuff - while it looks spectacular on its own, it might break with the overall appearance of the game. Simply put, your textures are "too good" for the game.

[zero7]

This is a problem that's been waiting to happen.  While I don't agree with Andreas that we should be bound by the Maxis look and feel, there are limits to what the game will allow us to do and in going for a hyper-real approach Simfox has run into one of them.

The slightly cartoonish feel of the Maxis buildings instantly forces a suspension of disbelief - we know they're not accurate, but they are far enough from reality that we accept it.

What you've done here, SimFox, is given us a building that is realistic enough that the suspension of disbelief is broken.  Those sharp reflections have to be accurate; our minds won't accept the fact that they are not of the surrounding buildings. 

Lotmakers are going to run into the mirror image of your problem with the CAL canals - there will be objects on the side of the canal that should be reflected, but aren't and it just won't look right. 

We can definitely improve things in terms of sharpness and solidity by using a sun/sky rig rather than the Maxis lights and Max has opened up a whole world of shiny materials that Maxis didn't go near (big thanks to you and AutoVino), but, as I said elsewhere, the laws of physics stop at the lot boundary and that is a game limitation that could only be over come by creating sets of buildings to be used together.  That would look fantastically realistic, but it doesn't allow for random growth or reuse by lotmakers.

Whether you're a BATter, lot-maker or modder there's a point at which the game limitations will present you with a dead end - unfortunately your talent with Max has brought you up against a major one in double-quick time.

Just a quick thought on what you are reflecting, though - if you use a reflection map that has the roof line of buildings at the lowest  height of your glass nearest and which get progressively taller the further away they are, then you will find that if your building is standing in the middle of lowrise you'll see the low reflections, and as the height of buildings surrounding yours increases they'll hide the lower reflections, keeping thing relatively realistic.  Make the reflection more blurry (even if it's not physically correct!) and you should get your suspension of disbelief back.

[callagrafx]

I think you mixing wrong things here! ANGLE is independent of hight!so hight of the buildings is actually irrelevant. when you look at the sun and it is too bright you sometimes cover it with you hand - at that very moment the sun and your hand are at the same angle although Sun is, obviously, much higher.

Actually, height of building governs how far out of the building's footprint the reflection extends so it is very relevant to the reflection map.  A 2 storey building would only reflect the ground 6m (for arguments sake) from the base...now a 20 storey building would reflect 60m from the base and that would include any buildings that fall into that zone.

Unless the building is at least twice as high as the surrounding buildings, then you will not see the roofs reflected, the AOA is way too steep for that...You will get reflected ground and the roofs of 2-3 storey buildings only.  The game is random enough that it'll soon be surrounded by other, taller buildings and look peculiar.  You are over-engineering a game asset, trying to bring a degree of realism into an old graphical game and the game falls short.  Simply change the texture to be less reflective and blur the map and you'll have another beauty for people to play with.

edit:  Sorry Richard, just read your edit...looks like we're saying the same thing

[SimFox]

yep.. that's a tough one...
Bringing what is essentially large mirror into SC4 isn't for fainthearted... 
This is the reason I've abandoned the project in first place. And speaking about blurring thins . if you look at 1,5 yo render - there it is  - blurred reflection - looks awful. And trust me it wouldn't look any better today.
So clearly the solution should lie in making those reflection less specific but keeping them sharp and contrasty to keep th feel of material. At least that's how I see it. And if you look at some Maxis buildings so did some of the original artists, others (seemingly majority) thought the smudging things would fit better. I don't share their view, no, sorry, I just don't. And yeah I'm not here to add more of the same, but something different.
Please understand me correctly I really value all your opinions and would very much appreciate if you guys would continue to share them, and always say what you think and feel and not the pointless compliments (unless you really feel like that and don't need to compromise) The whole point of this thread is exchange of ideas and view and not to collect applauds and some such.

I value your expertise and experience. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna "turn" , but we are the product of influences of the environment. and You are my environment and are essential!

PS
I've been tinkering with both reflection maps  (it is a different now and one that should be more in line with things suggested here - it isn't really and areal photo no more but one made from tall building - so the perspective should be right - plus I've made alteration as to the map itself as to material of glass to make it virtually impossible (for most part to see anything clearly).
Also I think there is a change in look between the render and the final thing game. And it, I believe, comes in during conversion to FSH. 16 million color image is turned in 256color one - a lot is lost and the conversion itself isn't best possible. I guess the age of FSH tool is showing here. Does anyone know anything about format? is there any other way to make FSH files? one what would allow more involved approach??
Anyway here is a new set of in-game shots:
Grill 'em!





BTW apparently I'm not quite a raving lunatic some of you think... my suspicions and fears about using meters as a system unit with Mental Ray had been confirmed. According to the information from Mental Ray developer there is an certifiable issue with AT LEST orthographic cameras - eg ones used in BAT. So here it from the as saying goes Straight from the horse's mouth:
"It seems from my research that max places the orthographic camera "100000" units from the scene. The problem is that a single precision float (which all geo data in mr is, to save space) is only accurate to about 8 decimals.... so this is why values in inches (that tend to be in the 0.5-10 range) work fine whereas the same number in *meters* which end up being approximately 0.002-0.25 go beyond the decimal limits.... i.e. 100000.5 can be expressed cleanly in single precision float, whereas 100000.002 can't...."
Same highly knowledgeable "horse" urges those who has experienced the problem to launch bug report with MAX so that it could be recognized as such and fixed - quite possible by this very MR expert! HE says if he himself would rise this issue with Autodesk they would dismiss it as there are no complaints from end users!

[Diggis]

That looks better as the reflection, while sharp, is more generic.

Cal, if you put a mirror beside an object and look down on it from the SC4 angle, you will see the top of the object if it is close enough to the mirror, provided the mirror is higher.  but it doesn't need to be twice the height like you said.  The issue with the first face is there were too many buildings in it I feel.  There should have been one or two.

[dmscopio]

Simfox, the new tower looks great, the glass reflection may be too dark, is it what it looks like in RL? Anyway, looking forwards to the next update.

[Shadow Assassin]

So it suppose to look like that - practically perfect mirror

There's no such thing as a perfect mirror, though.

I'd suggest using a texture that does not make the reflection so obvious. Maybe if it wasn't made so reflective, it'd fit in better.

[SimFox]

BST nears it's completion.
This is a sort of texture test..
Tell me do you think those patios are way out?? or that they do have some right to exist given the oriental location 


As for reflective... well first of all there is such a thing like Perfect mirror, (if we not speaking in terms of physics but ordinary perception. and ANY glass if you look at it parallel to the surface will be one. Even totally NOT mirrored.

When you say (not just SA but generally things like "texture that does not make the reflection so obvious" plz do tell what exactly that imply... cause sometimes I'm not really sure. Exactly HOW not so obvious. It may be something clearcut when such a general terms are used but once you start making it you need to know what EXACTLY  you're trying to accomplish... Knowing what it should NOT be isn't quite enough...

DM:
Well they should be somewhat lighter... but if I make them so first of all building looses some of the definition as more of it moves in to just few shades of grey, and also reflections become more traceable. So it was quite conscious move, but I think I'll lighten them just a tad. See the last render ... what do you think should they be lighter or darker??

I'm thinking of may be adding entrance to underground parking garage... that would for instance solve the problme with the reflections at the very bottom of curtain wall - those that are most problematic...

[RippleJet]

I'm thinking of may be adding entrance to underground parking garage...

That would solve the parking problems when lotting and not having parking space on it.

For the sake of realism I hope you'll be adding some other doors as well, at least to the patios.

I suppose the main entrance(s) is/are within those openings where you've placed a lawn.
If that is the case, a pathway will need to be laid in LotEditor to them (I hope the lawn isn't part of the bat).

Please, do not walk on the lawn!

[SimFox]

ha ha---
Doors are totally overrated!!
Actually entrance is in the semicircular part under the main tower. I'll be making some sort of rotating door system there.. About patio... hm I though that doors are there but they are very much integrated into that curtain wall... I try to somehow denote their location. I'm also thinking of what to do with patios how and whether to populate them...

[callagrafx]

Doors are totally overrated!! Grin No

I suppose that depends on which side of them you're on 

[jeronij]

Man, the roof in that building is really awesome   ¡¡¡¡

I`ll repeat myself. Outstanding geometry. Excellent   . As well as most of the reflections. The only thing that I dont like are those circles in the windows   .... and I cant help you much about this because I dont know exactly how it should look like either  

Anyway, the building itself is really inspiring.  I really like it  

[SimFox]

Yep
We shall all teleport all the time!! Beam me up...

Jeronij...
yeah those... the circles are funny that's true.. I'll see if I can somehow make them less so...

[M4346]

This is really an amazing model!  It is turning out be be really sexy...    

But I'm going to have to add my voice to RippleJet's request for doors.  But I'm glad to hear that you are on it!

Looking forward to this one then!  Great job thus far! 

[Filasimo]

great work Fox!  I really like the architexture of that building. Im curious as to what your next work will look like 

[M4346]

...architexture...

Interesting neologism that one! I also love the architecture and the texture of the building!  Thus, we both love the architexture! 

[Shadow Assassin]

It looks great, but I'm just not sure if the uber-reflective texture would fit in with the other buildings in the game.

It's kind of too realistic for the game. What I meant by the texture was that one which fitted in with the slightly non-realistic textures that Maxis used might be slightly better. The texturing of the windows on the Moscow Red you released a while ago is probably closer to what I'm talking about.

Suspension in disbelief is the key here, folks! If it fits in with the game well, then maybe, just maybe, we can disregard the breaking of the laws of physics (it's Somebody Else's Problem), notably of reflections and how they're supposed to behave. But if you've got something that drips as much eye candy as that building of yours, it makes everything else in the picture look a little... not real (and drab), if you get my drift.

Otherwise, all the other textures are perfect. It's just the windows won't ever reflect the true city skyline, and as a result, will look out of place.

[SimFox]

well, well, well... what is going to be next... Not sure yet... I have several projects in various stages of completion. One Silver Sea, MetroHarbourView, Ukraina... But I think realistically sometimes in next 10 days I could release separate towers from MetroHarbourView - those would be more useful then entire behemoth itself (something like 20x9 game squares) while individual towers would sit comfortably on 3x4 LOT. Towers Are practically done (even night lighting) The whole project had been postponed due to the fact I just couldn't find any additional imagery of the base and also because that time my computer was a bit too slow to tackle the entire complex (E6600). So in about a week or so after the BST will be released there may be about 4-5 different towers available as well...
SA:
you just can't compare the two.
The are suppose to be completely different! RED has regular glass this one is almost mirror like glazing- how could I make them with same material?? It is a whole point of this exercise to bring something that hasn't been there before. Yes this building looks very different compare to MAXIS ones, but one have to keep in mind that Maxis didn't really go much into the whole glassy thing, and few of models with clouds could be discounted as they neither look good or realistic, nor did they "go well" with the rest of line. What probably makes the difference is that you've been watching those for 4 years now. But it you try to sort of reset your perception and take a look with a fresh eye you'll see that maxis buildings were created by more than one team with quite different approach, so as result some building hat are logically fall in same category are in fact VERY mismatched.
So given the absence of this type of building in Maxis stable I feel it is wrong to compare it to bricks and mortar or low reflection Maxis stuff. In real life buildings of those type will also look very different and some (many in fact) say that they just could not and shouldn't be placed near each other. But next to Lippo it would look very different, and there will be more of similar kind (although I think I wouldn't be making quite as reflective ones simply cause I'm not a great fan of giant mirrors. This one I just had to finish since this is my very first bat and I don't want leave it half-backed.  But then it will be presented to judgment of public.

Suspension of disbelief or just a force of habit? Criteria of fitting in the game is first of all personal on some level, and secondly also dependent of acceptebale level of innovation. As such it isn very much a kin of the whole discussion of traditional and modern architecture.
If you believe that you can see much of a "skyline" from such an angle in ANY building in the real world you're very much mistaken - in reality due to very MANY factors all you would see are flashes of color and light. But DEFINITELY not a skyline.

[M4346]

I agree with SA that it is a bit beyond the normal look of SC4, but it would most certainly not be the first. It is comparable to the BATs of this person -> Click!

And I personally think they fit in in a more compact and dense CBD.  Which reminds me... those need to be CAMified too.