Changes to the Karma Point System

[dedgren]

There've been a number of members asking on this thread [linkie] about what has happened in the last little bit to their ability to give and take away karma points [linkie].  As usual, everyone has a theory- wretched excess, fine-tuning, Martians...

...kidding about that last one...

...well, you name it.  The answer is pretty straightforward, and we'd thought it should be announced here to put everyone on the same sheet of music.

When this site was set up, one of the things that really appealed to Jeronij was the karma system- the ability to give special recognition (in a positive or negative sense) to someone who merited truly unique recognition.  We set a few rules for using it, and then pretty much have stood back and watched as, by and large, the use of the system by the members has lived up to the expectations we held for it.  In other words, in general the recognition has pretty much been given for truly significant stuff, folks have been judicious in the number of points awarded (2-3 per day on average), and negative awards have not resulted in "tit-for-tat" responses or, heaven forbid, out-and-out flame wars.  Oh, we've stayed really right on top of things there, and there've been a few times stuff was nipped, so to speak, in the bud, but all in all we've been pretty happy.

This month, though, there just seems to have been a real collapse of the social order in the karma points world.  The number given is way up, the reasons they are being given are often pretty marginal, and several times now the giving of negative karma points has resulted in the recipient lashing back.  We've now decided to step in and take stock.  The ability of the general membership to award karma points (again, both positive and negative) has been suspended, effective earlier today.  Staff (admins and mods) may still do so, but for now under fairly tight internal rules.

We are going, over the next little bit, to look at the entire karma point system and evaluate various options as to what form it would take in the future.  We realize, in doing so, that much of the value of having such a system lies in furnishing an opportunity for a broad spectrum of folks to be able to speak up in a way that gets recognized on things that they feel matter.  During that time, we certainly ask for your understanding- and we will likely, as we try to do around here, ask for your input.

Thanks in advance for recognizing why we are doing this, and for bearing with us.


The Staff

[Shadow Assassin]

So I was (kind of) right: the system's being tightened up.

Hopefully this'll make giving out karma all the more special, rather than it being... shall we say, for no or little reason at all.

[M4346]

Well, some would say it's because I always have to be different and it is because I was born a rebel, but let me be the first to voice my concern and express my dissent.

I acknowledge, first and foremost, that the karma system was every user's privilege and not a right, and as such the administration reserves the right to, at any point in time enable / disable / take it away all together / award that privilege to a selected elite and so forth. So, I'm not saying what happened was wrong or was done outside the boundaries of the the legitimate authority awarded to the owner of this site for being, well, the owner of this site.

But, I unfortunately don't view the reasoning behind the changes (or the official reasons for changing the system submitted in this thread) as valid or even exhaustive, as I, personally, believe that there is more behind this. But that is not open to or for public discussion or discourse, as has been clearly proven.

I'm not going to make this a long, accusatory speech rife of speculation and alluding to the possible interference of extra-terrestrials , but I am going to ask any and every rational member here to consider the last changes in the karma description log, with specific reference to the first ever - karma point awarded to our owner and chief administrator.

My dissent has been a long time coming, as this is not the first ever administrative decision I take issue with, but I will not open up a can of worms here, or in any PM for that matter, I will say though that I guess this is all in the name of keeping our valuable members in a state of Bliss, comparable to other equally purgatorial places.

I also understand that voicing my descent may and probably will have negative consequences, consequences that I am willing to bear because that's something grown-ups have to be able to do - accept and bear the consequences of their actions. I fear, however, that this post will inevitably be moved to the netherworlds - where the dead and unblissful topics and posts go - which will not only be sad, but yet another nail in the coffin.

But I am sure that I did not break any of the rules and did nothing wrong (See Membership Rules, No. 5 and General Rule, No. 1 -> Click!), except maybe speak out against the administration.

I think I've said enough, and hope that this is, at best, a temporary measure pending revision, but maybe there are some grave institutional reforms needed while we're at it.

Have a lovely day then! It's a sunny summer afternoon in South Africa, and I have a lot to do!

Regards,

- Marius 

[Pat]

Marius I agree with you and as that being said I'm a little distaunted by the way the negative has been dished out... Yea sure i will admit some of my plus changes where not right and i shouldn't have, but you know what it was the only way i could really express my self by saying i truly enjoyed it for what it was... 

The Negative dishing has gone way beyond control and I'm disgusted by it, Today err well in the last few days are a good point of examples.... The dishing of negative to someone who don't understand cam ain't right or someone who busted their bums to get TPW that too ain't right so you know i did what -M- said i went threw the members logs of karma change... Did you know from page 115 - 105 there wasn't one single negative feed back then poof it went down hill from Jan 31st from a comment that was made between Serkanner and Mulefisk.... Then of recent clone attack OK i will bite on that but some of the comments was down right ruuuuuuuuude OMG....

IE "GO AWAY" OK come on here folks if you suspect some one is clone or cloning again, Just report to Jeroni or David and I'm certain it would have been dealt with.... I have only dished out one and i did say one negative point but i felt bad doing so.... but i did give the person a chance to correct themselves and when they still didn't do so well here it is....

OK I've rambled on enough and its late and i need to get back to bed lol.... G'nite my friends - pat

[dedgren]

I really don't intend to have a public argument about this, Marius- I either have credibility when I speak about something or not.  Quite frankly, I have been the one among the staff who has had the most concern about the karma point system (even to the point of advocating. early on, that we not have one at all).  I am telling you that a number of factors have now brought the situation to a head- your speculation as to other reasons is simply not well-informed.

I really don't understand all the talk of consequences for speaking up here, either.  I think the administration of this site is remarkably open to member input (as opposed to public posturing to make a point or advance an agenda- that isn't tolerated).  Anyone who has been here 15 minutes and paid attention even a little bit knows he or she can PM me and say anything that would be felt like.

IMHO the membership's ability to award karma points will be back.  Some rules may be changed, but only one member here has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are at any given time, and that's neither me nor you.


David

[M4346]

I really don't intend to have a public argument about this, Marius- I either have credibility when I speak about something or not.

I understand that and as I've expressed, I don't want to have a public fiasco about this either. I merely raised my concerns, but, as I said, the changes were implemented within the boundaries of the legitimate authority awarded to the site's administration. But, I also believe that a bit of public discourse and discussion is good, especially if we'd like to uphold the values upon which western society is founded. I'm not saying the site is or should be a democracy, but it should be, at least, civilised, tolerant, fair and without discrimination. And I do applaud the administration for having dealt superbly with breaches of those principles, I myself can think of many occasions in which the site's rules have proven to be watertight and effective.

I am telling you that a number of factors have now brought the situation to a head- your speculation as to other reasons is simply not well-informed

I am not doubting you. I am sure that there are and can think of a number of factors that have led to this change, but I am also not ignorant of the most recent and, in my opinion, most unfair and ungrounded incident that has led to the banishment of a member. A banishment that has, seemingly, gone unnoticed and unpublicized. It is then also to be said and pointed out that that banishment has gone hand-in-hand with the last - karma point awarded.

I really don't understand all the talk of consequences for speaking up here, either.  I think the administration of this site is remarkably open to member input (as opposed to public posturing to make a point or advance an agenda- that isn't tolerated).  Anyone [...] can PM me and say anything that would be felt like.

That is exactly my point David, the fact that such speaking up has to be done in Private Messages and away from the public eye. And, when it does happen in public (in reference to the above incident with the karma system) it is silenced and karma points even disappear magically. It must be understood that I don't advocate, propagate or hold dear any incidents of mass uprising and / or flame wars, but I do value a bit of transparency and accountability. If I have learned one thing from and in this community, it is the value of constructive criticism.

IMHO the membership's ability to award karma points will be back.  Some rules may be changed, but only one member here has a vested interest in keeping things the way they are at any given time, and that's neither me nor you.

I sincerely hope so, and I do hope that the revised rules and regulations are acceptable and, maybe even, involves some public discourse. After-all, this community cannot be a community without the community. Call me arrogant, but I view myself as a part of this community then.

One final thing though, who are you referring to here:

and that's neither me nor you.

[jplumbley]

I would like to add my few cents on this topic no matter how little meaning they have on the scope of things.

I would like to start by saying I am a great supporter of this system and I think it is very good to have.  The only problem with it is that some people do not have the same discipline, but luckily until the past few days everyone has been holding their own and not getting over anxious about Smites or for that matter over excited about Applauds.  It would be a good thing if we kept our emotions out of the Karma system all together, no matter how hard it may be sometimes.  I totally agree with Jeronij and Dedgren's choice to give everyone a timeout and put the system on "notice".  It was very bad what happened the past couple of days.

In the last 20 Karma points given out there have been 15 smites, and it is not appropriate in the way some of these points were given out.  Now, I dont have any problem with everyone given out Smites to a person like "randall1" like what happened, he received what he deserved, but there was an incident where Smites were given out a little too lightly and prematurely in my opinion.  I live by a few simple rules that I have set for myself when giving out Karma and I would like to share it with the community because I feel it signifies real commitment and not just loyalties.

My simple rules on Karma:

1.  The person has contributed to the community in a positive manner.  Now there are 2 or 3 instances where I feel this is applicable.  
 The person has either added or contributed to a game changing mod, or put very hard work into a BAT or LOT or MD.  
 The person has been supportive (helping with R&D for a mod or BAT, this does not include insignificant posts like "good work" or "I like it") in a project.  
 The person has given the community a tutorial that will help the new-comers learn to add CC.
 Act of goodwill.  This person has made an act of good faith or good will towards someone else. (being forgiving after a dispute, helping out in a time of need, etc.)

2.  The person has contributed negatively to the community.  The way I see this is if the person has been rude and against the rules about something.  I am not one to hold back on Smiting someone in most cases, but even in the first 12 months I have only given out 5 Smites but have given more than 40 Applause.

Who have I given smites and why:

BlueBeard - He had his moment of lashing out and was very rude towards Custom Content Creators in general.  I gave him a Smite because he was rude and Smiting is a way to tell someone that they did something wrong and against the rules.

Colyn - This was a different situation.  I had seen that Colyn had given Calagrafx and Barby both smites for "Abandoning him in his time of need" (as a joke).  So, in the name of Barby and Cal, as a joke I sent a Smite back at him, PMed him about it and returned an Applaud as soon as I could (1 hour later), Colyn thought it was funny and we had a few laughs about it.

OrangeJulius - I gave him a Smite because he asked a question about SAM that was answered on the previous page not more than 10 posts before his question.  This may not have been against the rules, but it was very rude in my opinion due to the fact that it had been discussed not 24 hours earlier.  OrangJulius then proceeded to PM me about it and apologized, I gave him an Applaud because he learned a lesson to read before asking silly questions.

Sneekypetepuma - He was another one who was rude and broke the rules in the community.  He was banned shortly after receiving Smites from the rest of the community aswell.

Randall, Madiera, Canstantina - Whoever this person is or was had received one Smite from me.  Because I do not want to encourage him to keep coming back looking for negative attention I have decided to ignore all of his attempts and that means no more Smiting against him, I would suggest the rest of the community does the same.

I think that every person in the community should not take Karma Points lightly.  These points can cause serious improvement and cause serious turmoil within the community depending on how they are dished out.  Emotions should be left out whether they are good or bad emotions and Karma Points should be given out based on the content of the situation at hand.  If everyone together only gives out Karma based on the merrits of the situation and not on emotion then we will not run into any troubles.  But when we start allowing emotions to run high as they did the other day, then our self discipline and system has failed.  In which case it should be removed or temporarily disabled.

Please I would encourage everyone to take a step back when they are dealing out Karma and ask yourself, what would you expect if you were on the receiving end of it?  And if you are given a Smite Point retaliation is not the answer, you have probably asked for it (especially if its from the Site Owner).

[rooker1]

jplumbley, great words you have spoken my friend.

Here is my two cents on the situation,
I'm sure the Admins do everything they do for the right reason.  If not this site won't be able to last.  And I'm positive that's not what they want.  I would like to think thier actions are very well thought out and in cases most, if not all, talked out between each other.

I was always surprised at how low the ability to be involved with the Karma system was.  I don't think I have abused this in any way and  I have always thought it was to be used for extrodinary reasons.  I have recieved my Karma points fairly (of course not expecting any for the reason I did to this point) and have given away very little and for very good reason, I beleive.  I don't give out bad karma points because I figure the admins will take care of the situation (after I report it).

As for the future of the Karma Point system, I hope it returns with a good set of rules and people use it for what it should be.  If everyone continues to hand them out at the rate they were, than the system seems to loose it's value.  Than, there is no point on having the system.  Everyone needs to remember, that a system like this will always be abused some how or some way by someone and those instances can be looked and corrected if needed.  After all, this is not our site, but belongs to one generous person who has decided to run a very well controlled site and I for one hope his dedication never changes.

Robin   

[M4346]

As I've said to JPlumbley in private, I agree with most of his sentiments, and strangely enough I've only ever awarded 15 karma points, of which three have been negative. (One was removed by Jeroni though, because I used improper wording, and I agreed to that).

I don't take issue at a revision of the karma system or at the punishment of abuse of the system, but I'd like to see that carried out in a fair, free, transparent and honest manner.

And if you are given a Smite Point retaliation is not the answer, you have probably asked for it (especially if its from the Site Owner).

I'm sure that if you look at the events surrounding that particular incident you will be able to discern why it ended up unfolding as it did. And besides, I don't see why someone has to be immune to or above anything, especially something as (what can be seen as) petty as a negative karma point.

[BigSlark]

Aye, I must agree with Rooker1.

What has made SC4D different is the careful moderation and the now largely self-policing community. If someone breaks a rule in a post they are typically warned before a moderator shows up and takes care of the problem. This, I think, is part of what will make this community last.

Yes, I am guilty of giving out quite a few karma points (and to some people twice on accident), but I gave them for those who I thought deserved it, from either impressive content that they released or an informative or necessary post. And yes, I gave a few negative karma points as well, but only to those who I thought deserved it. I have given out 4 negative points, two of those people PM'd me about it. One apologized and one was angry. The angry individual had been posting redundant inquiries and had been rude for the better part of a week and I'm sure I'm not the only person who's patience was wearing thin.

That said, I realize that rooker1, jplumbley, jeronij, dedgern, -M-, and myself all have different ideas of when it is appropriate to give or take karma from another individual and that the karma system will have to return with strict guidelines in order to keep it meaningful.

I eagerly await that day.

Cheers,
Kevin

[M4346]

What has made SC4D different is the careful moderation and the now largely self-policing community. If someone breaks a rule in a post they are typically warned before a moderator shows up and takes care of the problem. This, I think, is part of what will make this community last.

And that is exactly why I feel that some measures are a bit redundant, even extreme, especially considering the surprising level of maturity of the majority of this community. I mean, if we as a community can handle undesirable events and elements with maturity and integrity, won't we be able to stand constructive criticism and the occasional slap on the wrist?

[Colyn]

Guys ... this Karma thing is not worth fighting over ... I will SMITE someone when I feel like it and sometimes it is serious and sometimes it is a joke ... I think to smite a ROOKIE for being impatient is ok and I feel SMITING a senior for being too serious is OK ... I think smiting and applauding is valued at the moment it happens and then over ... I don't think SMITING is good if someone really has a problem like not understanding the BAT or the CAM or whatever ... in my opinion if someone SMITES a person because he has a lack of knowledge then it is plain mean.

Take it from an old guy ... KARMA is KARMA and life is short

Now let's go off-topic ...

Imagine how this lovely little girl will hurt if she comes off that scooter ... that is why you need to wear protective gear ... for the day KARMA hits you on the wrong side

[Colyn]

PS ... ATGATT = All The Gear All The Time

[M4346]

Now that's more like it!     

[fernby]

Karma gives me warm fuzzies. A bit like hugs from the wife.

you know what i mean.....

[Colyn]

Hmmm ... warm and fuzzy ... I am going to call my wife Karma too ... it is a nice name

[rooker1]

Great way to lighten the atmoshere here guys.......I thinkI need a hug now.  I'm going to go home for lunch today.

Robin   

[M4346]

Well Karma seems like such a "loslappie"^* judging by how she's been going around lately -> Click! 

* Afrikaans: loose girl / thing - actually, literally "loose cloth"

[JoeST]

Yeah shouldnt the staff be setting an exapmple   





Joe

[M4346]

I'm sure a revision of the karma system for the staff is on the cards soon.