New Additions to RTMT

[zakuten]

I'd also stagger the "bus bus" markings on the 2x1 stop, if possible, like:
B
U
S B
   U
   S
...or something along those lines.

[z]

I don't know, I like them centered as they are...

[0rion79]

@Z, about streets, I can easily change the color, but I like more the writing centered as it is. Personal opinion, but also caused by a better contrast between BUS writing and street color, that is darker in the center. Also, a lighter street color can enter in conflict with the "SUB" writing, that is white, but I'll see what I can do in marking more the sidewalk: it is not a problem.

Also, I like zakuten's advice. Very easy to do.

instead, about doble yellow line, it can be done but, of couse, my icons set is inspired to old Europe, where we have lines as they are in my icons (well, except OWR, of course!). At least in Italy, we use yellow color to mark on-road stops or streets under work. But here again it is very easy to change.

About GLR, the point is that I don't use them in the game so I have an unclear idea of what they should look like.
Imho, having just the rail in the icon, instead than the grass, is a good reference for the player to recognize it. After all, since those icons will go in the "generic mass transit" icon tree, there won't be any bias with other icons.
The last one instead is just a "GLR" stop without bus or subway, but if it is unclear for you, it is the proof that it should be re-made, since it is not representative.
I await for more informations about GLR needs....

[z]

Yes, if you don't use GLR, I can see how you might miss some of the required stations.  The ones in the first section have no GLR stop, while the ones in the second section do.  For example, you may have more bus stops on your Ave/GLR than you do tram stops, so one of the stops in the first category is necessary.

Bus
Bus 2x
Sub
Bus/Sub

GLR
Bus/GLR
Sub/GLR
Bus/Sub/GLR

So this is why having a label such as "GLR" over the tracks is necessary, as otherwise the player would assume that even though this is an Ave/GLR station of some kind, there is no tram stop there.

As for the streets, one reason I suggested that the label be to the side is to give more of an impression of a two-way street, since there are no lane markers.  The current view looks just a bit too amorphous to me.

[0rion79]

Ah, I see.
So, what do you think about adding a train, to mark that a GLR STOP is here, instead than using writings?
Since the original subway train was very ugly, brown and like a box, I have used monorail train as reference point, but I can switch the train color to anything else, maybe blue, but I'm afraid that using metallic or white could make the train edges harder to recognize from the rails.

Also, I have tried to use the original color for the BUS writing on the roads, on the right, and it is too dark and I think that it is good only for the game but not for icons.

I have tried to experiment with zebras too... tell me if you like more the bigger or smaller one.

[z]

GLR uses trams, which look very different from trains.  As you've noted earlier, these are all difficult to distinguish from a direct overhead view.  Then you've also got the problem that these would be the only icons with vehicles, while all the others would have either signs, MT stops, or both.  My experience is that consistency is very important in a user interface.  So I would still recommend using the letters "GLR" where there are GLR stations.

I agree with you about the lighter colored BUS sign - legibility is what's most important here.

I would recommend skipping the zebras altogether.  Although they're certainly good in the game, there's very little room here, and things start looking cluttered.  The main point of the icons is to indicate as clearly as possible what the buttons do, and I don't think the zebras contribute to that.

As for the double yellow lines, I'm glad you're willing to add them, but that's not where they go.  They're only used to separate traffic going in opposite directions, so you should use them only on standard two-way roads.  Everywhere else, the dashed white line that you've been using (such as for one-way roads) is appropriate.  Also, the double yellow lines take up a fair amount of the road; is it possible to make them thinner and/or closer together?  If not, they're certainly usable as they are.

Thanks again for all your work on this.   

[0rion79]

No problem, I just have to understand what's missing. What do you think of this?
Just to see a GLR station.

I have addes a passenger platform, where I have interrupted rails and added the GLR writings... I think it is clear enough and that can be recognized from other GL rails with no platforms.



Also, no zebras.

PS: yellow lines on avenues were just to test the "effect", I'll apply all changes later

[z]

Much better! 

[0rion79]

Good. I will update the other icons soon.

But, just to know, Z, can you tell me what is the use of single mass transit stops, in a city? It is difficult to explain, so I will try with an example.

Let's say that I have a city with GLR, bus and monorail. Usually, I place "bus-stop only" in areas where there afre few Sims, or in poor areas, so that I have low costs but even low expenses. Instead, I keep subway for high-density and rich zones, so I can afford the costs but also will have a high revenue from tickets. In this second case, why should I want to use subway stops only, when I can use a stop that, using the same space, allows me to connect even buses and ground light rail? It will make things easier for sims and also looks more realistic for me, because in every city that I've seen with subway, there is also a bus stop nearby, to connect subway to the areas that are without.

[zakuten]

Often times, I wind up using a subway-only RTMT simply because there aren't busses serving that area; for me, I mostly use bus- or try to- as a feeder for mass-transit or trams. Therefore, having a bus-stop next to the subway downtown doesn't help, because people will go on the bus rather than take the tram or subway to their bus. ...Sounds odd, that explanation, but I hope it makes sense.

[0rion79]

It is very strange, because I've seen that, without buses, people will use the subway less.
Subway is faster, so Sims in need to move from point A to point B will use the fastest way. The point is that bus can have a greater and more capillar (hope the word is right) distribution and using multiple stops will make easier for the sims that are connected with buses only to reach the subway.
Doing eselwhere, at least for me, has proven to increase congestions.

[z]

I agree with you, Orion, and the system you describe is used in many cities.  Before RTMT, when MT stations always took up real estate, I sometimes staggered stations.  But with RTMT, it's just as easy to plop a bus/subway combo station as it is to plop a standalone subway station, and I don't think I ever use the latter.  But some people clearly do.  (Although zakuten, I really think the fault is in your traffic simulator, not your transit system.  You might want to try Simulator Z, which doesn't have this problem.)  Nevertheless, some people may want to have subway stations in places like restriced downtown areas, or, for streets, restricted suburban areas, where they don't want any buses.

As for GLR, I can easily see cases where each one of the available options would be desirable.

So for many people, the standalone subway stop is unnecessary, but some people do use it.

[cogeo]

Bus lines often act as "feeder" or "shuttle" services, if your "trunk" lines are subway or GLR. This indeed does work in SC4 too.
But there may be cases where players may want to use subways exclusively, eg in the business centre with a dense network of subway lines and stations. If you put subway+bus stations there, some sims may uses buses, which may be something the player may not want. I think it would best to leave players design their MT system the way they want, so subway-only stations should be an available option. There is no point dropping subway-only stations for having some 5 fewer RTMT lots.

[z]

I agree completely with cogeo, and no one has to worry about standalone subway stations being dropped.  Once again, it all comes down to personal style, and we want to support as many styles as possible.

[0rion79]

Thanks a lot for explanation, it has been very useful!

Instead - if I may open a very little off-topic - I have some troubles with the file that Tage has sent me. It is the SC4 funciton for Photoshop. I'm using the ver. 11 Demo but the program says that I'm missing layers 1, 2 and 0. Icons result mirrored with the first and last spaces (eg, the grayscale one) empty and no external border. Any idea??

[0rion79]

Sorry for double-posting, but I have updated the icons, accordingly with latest requests:
-USA version for streets, with double yellow line
-on-rail platform with GLR
- darker streets
- no zebras
- lightly difference of "bus" writng for x2 bus stops (only in some, so you can tell if you like how you like it more).

Here is the sample:

[z]

Don't worry about double posting - I'm pretty sure it applies only to multiple posts on the same day.  And if you didn't double post, this wouldn't have shown up when I clicked "Show new replies to your posts."  As one of the moderators, I personally don't object to double posting, as long as it's not just an addition to a previous post made a few minutes ago, and as long as it's not abused (e.g., multiple posts to bump somebody's post count).

Meanwhile, I think your icon set is looking quite good.    I definitely like the newer streets; I think those will work fine.  My only suggestion here is to make the "BUS" in the first street icon a little more contrasting in color; it's a bit hard to read right now.

As for the staggered versus aligned bus stops, your picture confirms what I thought - the aligned ones look better to me.

The platforms with the GLR make it stand out more - I like that.  The only thing I'm thinking here is that the black GLR (which is the color I suggested) might stand out better in a different color - something like a blue or a green.  But that's optional.  Other opinions on this could be useful.  Or you could just try something and see what you think.

Meanwhile, we haven't had Euro and US style buttons before - they've all been the same.  But since we have Euro and US style roadways, I can tie the buttons to the roadway selection without adding any extra choices for the user.

All in all, it's a really good set.  Thanks again for all the work you've put into this.  And I'm sorry I couldn't help you with your layers question.

Meanwhile, cogeo, are you still working on your set?  What are your plans?

[RippleJet]

Instead - if I may open a very little off-topic - I have some troubles with the file that Tage has sent me. It is the SC4 funciton for Photoshop. I'm using the ver. 11 Demo but the program says that I'm missing layers 1, 2 and 0. Icons result mirrored with the first and last spaces (eg, the grayscale one) empty and no external border. Any idea??

That script was created for PS version 8, and I know it was made to be backwards compatible with version 7.
Maybe you need to downgrade... 

My offer is still valid though.
Send me the images one-by-one, sized 44×44 pixels, and I'll run the script for you!

[0rion79]

OK, in the next days I will try some other change, but I think that changing the GLR color in red is the only option.
blue can be associated with bus stops, green with grass, while yellow and white are already used...
Anyway, I will see what will come out.

About streets & bus, instead, I'm afraid that there is not much to do except to make the street darker...

PS: RJet, thank you. I will try!

[FrankU]

Orion79: your icons are great!
I am eager to use them.

I also had the problem with layers. I downloaded the file from the tutorial somewhere on this site, but as I opened it there were only some semi-transparent and opaque layers. No white edges... Pity.
If there is somebody who has a useful file, I'll please her/him to put it on the site somewhere.