Started by Chrisim, January 11, 2009, 06:27:00 AM
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QuoteA station plopped on rail track should have the same Transit Switch Entry Cost value as the time a train needs to drive along a rail track of same length.
Quote from: z on January 14, 2009, 12:11:02 AMAs a result, for the speed of a mode of mass transit to make a difference in the Sims' travel strategies, it must be significantly higher than the alternatives, due to the disproportionate effect that access time to mass transit plays in SC4.
Quote from: RippleJet on January 14, 2009, 02:23:06 AMAn option would of course be not to raise the speed of MT, but reduce the speed of cars.E.g. instead of having the rail speed of 150 compared to a car speed of 50, how about reducing that to 120 for the rail and 40 for the cars? And increasing the "Commute trip max time" accordingly.
QuoteFrom Maxis' simulator the speed of cars (on road), buses (on road), trains and monorails have shifted quite a lot:Simulator Car Speed Bus Speed Train Speed Monorail SpeedMaxis3146110200A6055100175Z5040150250Maybe one problem is that every custom simulator seems to want higher car driving speeds...
QuoteBasically, the Entry Cost shouldn't be that much dependent on the network speed.It would be better if only one Entry Cost per type of station could be used.
QuoteThe Entry Cost simulates the time it takes to buy tickets and wait for the MT to arrive.
QuoteThus, like Cogeo said, it should probably be somewhat higher than the minimum speed to avoid shortcutting.
QuoteThe lower the network speeds are, the more freedom we would have with the Entry Cost.If the average road speed for cars is 31, the entry cost on train stations can be higher than if the cars are allowed to drive 50 or 60.
QuoteIf the city decides to upgrade all roads (change simulator) to allow an almost doubled speed limit and average speed, then there is no doubt passengers will abandon rail, unless there's a superfast train leaving once a minute (higher network speed and smaller entry cost).
QuoteUnfortunately (naw, luckily) I'm about to leave for a 3-week vacation,so I will probably not be able to take an active part in this discussion for some time...
QuoteI don't think that's it. I think that if you look at all three simulators under consideration, the car speeds of all of them are much more realistic than the Maxis speed. To have an entire region where the maximum car speed is 31 kph (about 20 mph) is pretty unrealistic. And to have bus speeds 50% higher than bus speeds everywhere - that doesn't make sense, especially when you consider all the stops that buses make that the game cannot directly account for.
Quote from: SimGoober on January 14, 2009, 07:44:47 AMOne minor point to make here; Are we trying to make this more realistic or more functional? It's been my experience that the game does not always allow for both. For RCI stuff, I have found it best to make something look more realistic, but perform more functionally in game. For example, if a building looks like a little shop in a low wealth area, it would probably employ 5 or 6 people in real life. But to function well in game, it may employ 30 or more. Several BATters have gotten caught up in this ongoing debate; and it never ends.My suggestion would be to look at "upgrades" to these traffic related ideas as 95% functional, 5% realistic. SimCity is not a perfect simulation; it is more utopian, and generalised. In the above comment, a speed limit of 20 mph in an entire city is not realistic, but in an inner city, high density zoning, it is close. That may be why that number was picked, as Maxis probably assumed everyone would want to end up in a high density, high population city.The only way to make it more realistic I suppose would be to find a way to enforce variable speed limits in different areas...
Quote from: RippleJet on January 15, 2009, 01:35:28 AMI don't think 31 km /h is that unrealistic either for big cities...I believe most metropolises in the world have an even lower average speed downtown...Wasn't that of London something lilke 10 km/h before the congestion charges?
QuoteBesides, since the cities in SC4 are smaller than in RL, with shorter routes from home to work,sholdn't the speeds be smaller than in RL, rather than larger?
QuoteRegarding the advantage I was trying to explain about having smaller network speeds...Consider a Sim searching for the fastest way to work...The straight path leads to a railway station.From there he can choose two equally long alternatives, rail and road, both being 40 tiles long.In the other end, there are 3 more tiles from the railway station to his job.In eiher alternative he would take the car to the first railway station.Then he'd have to choose. Park the car and take the train or drive on?With Maxis' Simulator the train would take 40/110 = 0.36The walk from the train to work would take 3/3.5 = 0.86Thus, the total time from the first station to work is 1.22By driving he would get there in (40+3)/31 = 1.39This means that he would take the train if each stationwould have an entry cost of no more than (1.39-1.22)/2 = 0.085Now, consider the city upgrading the roads and rails to Simlator Z.The train would now take 40/150 = 0.27And the walk to job would take 3/5 = 0.60Total time from the first station = 0.87By driving he would now get there in (40+3)/50 = 0.86Thus, regardless of the entry cost of the station, he would probably not consider taking the train, unless road congestion makes that route considerably slower.And Simulator A would be even worse...
QuoteThis is all theory, but I hope it explains a little better what I meant was the problem when each custom simulator has (proportionally) increased the car speed more than the speed of any MT... and then trying to solve the problem of MT not being used by optimizing the entry costs of stations.Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone to start changing the Simulators or even adding new ones...I'm just trying to explain my feelings about some of the problems...It's a pity Maxis didn't implement the entry cost themselves, if 0.05 may indeed have been what they intended to use...
QuoteWhat about traffic simulators? They certainly don't depend on the controller.
Quote from: Tropod on February 18, 2009, 06:44:47 AMIf I could make a suggestion; I was just browsing through the Traffic exemplar; and wondered if it would be worthwhile someone taking a look into the Trip Starting Cost by travel type for Mass Transit 0xEA8C3CDB property; it could potentially help address certain aspects of what's being discussed, and then again maybe not.
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