What causes Prop Pox (and how to avoid it)

[cogeo]

Barby replied just before I clicked the Post button!

Apart from the ingame parks and plazas, it's being used by a bunch of other (ingame and custom) lots too. Actually it's one of the most commonly used SC4 props, and one of the most recognisable ones.

[wouanagaine]

It is in fact very common, and it doesn't have any influence on the savegame as far as I can see ( I've looked thru 5 differents big cities with lot of props)
So for now, I think that adding the RKT4xm doesn't lead to prop pox.
PS : I assumed the original prop is already a timed version as it use RKT4.

[cogeo]

PS : I assumed the original prop is already a timed version as it use RKT4.

Hmmm, both yes and no. The RKT4 property (in both the original and the modified one) is used for combiing multiple models (the lightpost model for both day and night, and the Lightflare/halo one). So this is not strictly speaking a timed prop, but of course, the light halo is displayed only during the night (this is controlled by the Nighttime State Change property).

[wouanagaine]

Hmmm, both yes and no. The RKT4 property (in both the original and the modified one) is used for combiing multiple models (the lightpost model for both day and night, and the Lightflare/halo one). So this is not strictly speaking a timed prop, but of course, the light halo is displayed only during the night (this is controlled by the Nighttime State Change property).

I've done more experiments and looked at 2 savegames with that prop, one with NAM and one without NAM, same data, same size, ie no influence

[FrankU]

FrankU
First make a backup
then Make sure that by saving / loading multiple time that city,  others props are disappearing. When prop pox strikes, it , as this date,  usually removed more than one prop the first time.
If no, then you aren't prop poxed ( yet, as you use files that trigger the prop pox )
If yes, I'll definitely need the savegame

Wou, I looked more closely into the city. I reopened it and searched for missing props. I found one lot that had only textures and some parked cars. There was no query anymore. I tried to find out which lot this was. By doing this I changed into "Area" view (where you can see if the area is residential, industrial, commercial or other). After going back to the normal view all the textures were missing.Only parked casr on the terrain base were visible. Now I also missed the textures in the Schönbrunn Palace lot and in the Airforce base. Is this Prop Pox?

After having left the city, without saving, and entering again I found exactly the same things.
There are so many lots with so many props.... I did not see really obvious props missing besides these three.

I'd say: very funny indeed and it does not look exactly like the Prop Pox as described here.
Doe this mean anything to you all? I have a bakup of hte city and the whole region. If you want it??

[sithlrd98]

OK , just to re-cap...it appears that even though the Pox struck before OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE file was released , this particular file is a contributor. I also realize that it's creator more than likely will not fix the IIds for the modified props. If that is the case , are we all supposed to change the IIDs ourselves to help prevent possible poxing in our cities , or is this a special exemption to the rules and will be updated by some one in the community?

Jayson

[bap]

OK , just to re-cap...it appears that even though the Pox struck before OWW2_BDK_RESOURCE file was released , this particular file is a contributor.

Indeed.

I also realize that it's creator more than likely will not fix the IIds for the modified props. If that is the case , are we all supposed to change the IIDs ourselves to help prevent possible poxing in our cities , or is this a special exemption to the rules and will be updated by some one in the community?

Assuming that the creator will not update its affected props, the answer is yes (we are all supposed to make the changes by ourselves). Each user has two alternatives of how to correct the problem by him/herself (see here). They are relatively simple procedures that require loading & modifying your version of the bdk-resource file with ilive's Reader. As I understand, no one other than the creator is allowed to make a corrected version of the affected prop pack available to the community as this is proprietary material. Sorry ...

[sithlrd98]

Thanks! I figured as much. I'm also still wondering if improperly done T-21 mods may also be a contributor? I understand that , as far as we can tell , the NAM,etc.is fine.

Thanks for all your hard work in trying to nail this issue and keeping us up-dated!

Jayson

[XiahouDun]

Just a little heads up though on the pack being referenced. His EULA prohibits modifying his uploads (I'm assuming "in any manner" includes for personal use as well).

This product may not be modified, reused or redistributed in any manner.

Just didn't want to see any legal boohooing going on because of this proposed fix.

[Swamper77]

Thanks! I figured as much. I'm also still wondering if improperly done T-21 mods may also be a contributor? I understand that , as far as we can tell , the NAM,etc.is fine.

Jayson,

Since T21's are not props, they shouldn't contribute to the Prop Pox. T21's merely reference props to place on specific tiles of networks.

Just a little heads up though on the pack being referenced. His EULA prohibits modifying his uploads (I'm assuming "in any manner" includes for personal use as well).  Just didn't want to see any legal boohooing going on because of this proposed fix.

Before I left his site, I showed him a project I was working on based on his MTP content. He said he didn't mind that I was creating it from his files. He did say that I am not to upload the files anywhere though, as I did modify his content to suit my needs. So modding for personal use is okay, but the final results of personal modding are not to be released, from what I understand. So there aren't any hard feelings, I left his site for various personal reasons.

-Swamper

[Diggis]

Just a little heads up though on the pack being referenced. His EULA prohibits modifying his uploads (I'm assuming "in any manner" includes for personal use as well).  Just didn't want to see any legal boohooing going on because of this proposed fix.

Think about it, he will have no way of knowing if you edited his files unless you tell him.  And there is realistily nothing he can do to stop you anyway.

[wouanagaine]

from http://simpeg.com/forum/Themes/default/PLEX_license.html

You may use and modify this product for your own use but this product may not be redistributed in any manner without consent of the author.

so you can modify it
And even if wouldn't have until you don't redistribute it, you're safe

[callagrafx]

I think we can take it as gospel that those files will not be changed, so the choice is simple.....modify them yourselves following Bap's tutorial or don't use 'em.  EULA aside, I think personally it's extremely poor form to know there is a problem and not correct it, irrespective of how many people actually have this problem.  It merely shows a contempt for the community.

[XiahouDun]

I think we can take it as gospel that those files will not be changed, so the choice is simple.....modify them yourselves following Bap's tutorial or don't use 'em.  EULA aside, I think personally it's extremely poor form to know there is a problem and not correct it, irrespective of how many people actually have this problem.  It merely shows a contempt for the community.

But we're all out to get him, well at least the BSC is My concern was more him running around saying that SC4D encourages people to violate other creator's EULA. I'll leave out my commentary on his behavior, since you and I agree on it and at this point would be like beating a dead horse. Just wanted to get that statement out there.
(For the record was taking that quote from the EULA in the zip of the download)

[wouanagaine]

For the record I did the following test
Riquelandia4 is not prop poxed and if you run it for 100 years with an empty plugins, it will not show prop pox
I used Riquelandia4 and made a dat file with only the 4 examplars Bap identified, this is the only file in my plugins folder
Then I load Riquelandia4 , run for 2 years and save => prop pox

[callagrafx]

But we're all out to get him, well at least the BSC is

Now that's just wrong....Despite what he would have you believe, the BSC does not engage in witchhunts, we have much better things to do 

[cogeo]

So for now, I think that adding the RKT4xm doesn't lead to prop pox.

This does make sense to me.

I have always been wondering waht exactly the game saves in the city files. Having experimented with props early on, and esp with prop overrides, I have concluded that the game actually saves very little information, for each prop instance:
- A reference to the prop, namely its TGI (or most probably I-only) ID(s).
- Placement information, ie coordinates and orientation.

That is, the props' properties are NOT saved. The above assumptions are sort of verified by the following facts:
- If you make a modded version of the prop, changing any of its properties, like RKTx, Orient To Slope, Light etc, and you reload the city, all prop instances (in lots and networks) immediately reflect the changed properies.
- If instead, you change the lot (move the props) the game will display the "old" lot design, as the game saves the placement information for each prop instance, something that's very expected.

That is, for each prop instance the game stores just a reference to the prop, and the information that changes for each instance, which is the placement data. This is indeed a senseful and well-done implementation.

Now about timed props, using properties like Simulator Date Interval, Simulator Date Start, Simulator Date Duration and the like, I think it's quite reasonable to suppose that the game saves some additional information for each prop instance, like prop state (whether it's reset, visible or invisible) and maybe the number of days elapsed since reset. This information is seemingly stored individually for each prop instance, thus increasing the size needed for storing the prop(s).

So it may be a good explanation why the Prop Pox bug occurs. The game first reads the prop exemplar from a datfile; while loading a city, it reads props based on the prop exemplars in the datfiles: if a prop is timed, it expects a longer record (containing the additional data, as described above). Now if the prop's definition differs to what is actually stored in the city file (ie if the prop definition contains timed properties, but the city file does not contain the additional data - or maybe the opposite?) the program might not read the data properly, as it is probably not programmed to cope with this situation. Now, why this happens only if the subfile exceeds a certain size, this is another point.

I will post more on this, two of my packs (Plaza Addentum Mega-Pack and Streetlight Colour Pack V2 on the STEX) do contain some overrides to SC4 props. Most are bug fixes, but the latter is what the mod is exactly about (change the lightcones' model/colour), and does so by overriding the ingame streetlight props. None of above changes a simple prop to a timed one (or the opposite) though.

I'll have to go to bed now, it's 00:45 here.

[RippleJet]

As far as we've managed to decode the prop subfile within the savegame,
we can confirm that at least the following information is saved for each prop:

• Prop Exemplar Type ID
• Prop Exemplar Group ID
• Prop Exemplar Instance ID
• Minimum X-Coordinate
• Minimum Y-Coordinate
• Minimum Z-Coordinate
• Maximum X-Coordinate
• Maximum Y-Coordinate
• Maximum Z-Coordinate
• Orientation
• State, if applicable
• Start Time of Day, if applicable
• End Time of Day, if applicable
• Interval (in days), if applicable
• Duration (in days), if applicable
• Start Date, if applicable
• End Date, if applicable
• Random Chance
• Object ID

In addition to these there are a number of flags and other bytes contining (so far) unknown information.

[XiahouDun]

Now that's just wrong....Despite what he would have you believe, the BSC does not engage in witchhunts, we have much better things to do 

Oh I know, I was mocking his paranoia

[wouanagaine]

So it seems that some tests are conducted at Simpeg about the prop pox and that Pegasus come to the conclusion it is caused by a massive amount of custom content growables. I'm glad Pegasus is willing to conduct some tests even if a low number of people experience the problem


However, in order to save some time to Pegasus in doing many tests that takes a big massive amount of time and as Bap said it is quite boring and which he should rather likely spend on batting, I will rewrite some of stuffs already said previously
Bap gently upload various savegames made without any custom contents, so that anyone can load them and play with them ( maybe not playing, it is quite a shock to see a big city without any custom content )
Riquenlandia.sc4 is easily incorporatable in one of your region with an empty plugins as far as you have a region with a big city tile available, run it for 10/20 game years then save ( you can even zone low density Residential in the south, Bap already laid down some streets for us ), quit and reload then see if the prop pox is there
You can after, reincoporate the same city ( not the saved one ) and do the same test with some prop pack Bap identified, for the same time.
It is up to you to do the same test, which are quite quick as you won't have to build the city from scratch. If you think the city is not prop pox free, then it is up to you to build such a city, you have an example, and I don't think it is hard ( but it is boring and time consummnig ) to build such a city. Just to let you know I have made a tool that ensure a city is prop pox free or not and I tested it against all savegames people gently upload and I can guarantee you the city is prop pox free
So as far as I can see from the tests ( and I successfully reproduce them ), and Bap' savegames, prop pox strikes without any growables custom content, as it only strikes with some modified ( in a certain way ) maxis props Bap identified. I'm really eager to know from what testing process Pegasus come to his conclusion so I can reproduce them.
Of course I don't ask you to believe me and I'm pretty sure Pegasus don't ask you to believe him either, you just have to redo the tests by yourself and I leave you to draw the conclusion
However, if for any reasons you come to the same conclusion as Pegasus, please let us know because so far we have identified an issue with modified Maxis props in a certain way, but don't really see any relation with massive amount of custom growable and prop pox and it will really help us to know and hopefully I'll be able to develop a tool that eradicate prop pox from you city
It will for the same reasons very handy if Peg can join the discussion here as we are unable to get at his site

EDIT:
Fixed your image link
/Tage
Thanks
/Wouanagaine