New Additions to RTMT

[0rion79]

hi, actually I'm editing my icons but I have followed RJ's advice and with Photoshop ver 7 or 8, the script is working fine. Probably you have to downgrade to a previous version.

[Gwail]

Instead - if I may open a very little off-topic - I have some troubles with the file that Tage has sent me. It is the SC4 funciton for Photoshop. I'm using the ver. 11 Demo but the program says that I'm missing layers 1, 2 and 0. Icons result mirrored with the first and last spaces (eg, the grayscale one) empty and no external border. Any idea??

I don't know how this script works (is it an action?), I can only guess. Maybe you don't have proper layer names? Can you post a screenshot with the exact information window?

Edit: I haven't noticed your last message... Anyway, the layer names could be a clue of this problem .

[z]

I've just received word from Orion that his icons will be completely ready by the end of the month, so they will make it into RTMT 4.0, for both the standard menus and the DAMN menus, assuming the DAMN menus are ready in time for 4.0.  Meanwhile, I'm working hard to finish the rest of the release so I can pass it on to our testers.

More news coming soon...

[Crissa]

I would like 1x1 non-RT stations with facing, so that I can mix RTMT-configured stations with any transit network, in those cases there isn't a RT solution or can't be.  Like subway for the ped mall or placing a similar station on a street that is using SAM or a road that needs to have a different facing.

-Crissa

[z]

These features already exist.  Non-Roadtop stations are available as an installation option in RTMT, but if you want to use them, you should get them from the latest patch described in this post.  A subway station for ped mall tiles can be found in the PedMall Compatible Transit Pack.

[z]

I'm periodically asked what's going to be in RTMT V4, and how important it will be to upgrade.  Unfortunately, my progress has been slowed down a bit by RL, but things are coming along.  First, I thought I'd show you how Orion's menu icons look when they're installed:



I have them functioning in my game, and I have to say, they really do make a difference.  It's really easy to find the station I want at a glance now.

I've mentioned the customization features in the past; there are two aspects to what I'm doing here.  First, I'm making a custom installer that makes it easy to build stations step by step, without ever having to move files around.  The prop family and single prop modes are being retained unchanged, but they're much simpler to use this way.  The installer is being designed so that everything can be done without referring to the Readme file.

Secondly, I'm introducing an optional customization feature whereby you can automatically have different station styles for different roadway types.  For example, you can have one type of bus stop appear when you plop on streets, a different type appear when you plop on roads, and a third type when you plop on avenues.  Or you can have only two types if you want.  This will apply to all stations and props.  If this feature proves popular, it can easily be extended to the upcoming SAM stations, where automatically having different types of stations for different styles of streets would seem to be desirable for customizers.  I got a prototype of this feature working a while ago; all that remains to do is finish extending it to all props, and finish the automation aspect.

All known bugs in RTMT have now been fixed (there were only two!), and all that remains on this front is to propogate the fixes to all the affected stations.

As to whether or not you should upgrade in V4 when it's ready, I would say, definitely yes.  For one thing there are the bug fixes, which although they may be subtle (few people ever noticed the bugs) are nevertheless important; I noticed significant improvement in traffic patterns once I installed them.  Customizers will find the new system more powerful and easier to use.  And finally there are the new menu icons; chances are also good that we will have DAMN menus for the first release.  As for compatibility, you will be able to move to V4 without disturbing any of your V3 stations.

Comments or questions on these plans are welcome, as always.

[FrankU]

Well, your plans are quite extensive. I would not know what to ask more. It looks like a great and complete pack. I'll install it definitely asap!

[z]

I'd like to add a bit more about coming plans for RTMT.  My previous message mentioned the features I was planning to put in the first release, V4.0.  I had indicated earlier that Ebina's new stations for underground rail would come in the following version.  However, two things have happened since then.  First, although I have always liked the underground rail feature a lot, I have found that in practice, there were a lot of limitations in its use.  I recently discovered (by accident, actually) a simple way of removing virtually all of these limitations, enhancing its usefulness greatly.  As this was quite simple to do, I have implemented and tested this, and it works fine.  I am now in the process of making this into a complete package, and it should be announced and released on the main NAM board in the next week or so.

The second thing that happened was that in the process of doing this, I had the opportunity to delve deeply into Ebina's work on underground stations.  It all appears to be quite complete, and is done just in the style of the rest of RTMT.  I would estimate that integrating it into the main RTMT package and getting it ready to go should only take a couple of weeks.

Putting these two events together, it would seem to me to be quite worthwhile to integrate the underground rail stations into the first release, V4.0.  The additional functionality I will be introducing for underground rail will make them even more attractive.  And I don't think it makes much sense to put out full releases only a couple of weeks apart.

Looking a little further down the road, SAM stations are definitely next.  As I gain more experience in the modding business, it's clear that this should be quite simple to do.

Finally, diagonal stations are definitely coming, and will probably be the next feature after SAM stations.  Since jestarr is doing most of the work needed for diagonal stations, they may even come out in the same release as SAM stations.  It's hard to say at this point.  But jestarr is hard at work on the props needed for these stations, and is making good progress.

After that, it's a bit open about what comes next.  To a large extent, I am being guided by the results of The Eternal RTMT New Features Poll.  The poll is still open; the thread is merely locked for posting, as posting about new features should go in this thread.  I notice there's a fair amount of interest in intersection stations; just be aware that these are essentially eye candy, as any RTMT station placed right next to an intersection serves the whole intersection, as described in FAQ #2.

[cogeo]

Hi all,

I have made some improvements to my proposed icons for RTMT V4, as I prefer symbols to labels.

The most important improvement is the addition of a tiny black "halo" around the symbols. This solves the problem of the varying background (dark for the road surface, light for the sidewalks and rails). As all symbols are now light-coloured, the black halo causes a good contrast, and as a result the symbols are not confused with the background. Ie this has improved distinctiveness. Other improvements are:
- The bus symbol is light blue coloured.
- The wheels are somewhat widened, and the undercarriage a little raised, in order to make them more easily to distinguish.
- For all symbols, the windscreens and the lights are now dark-coloured (no longer transparent) so that they have higher contrast to the vehicle (light-coloured) and they don't show the background through.
- For all symbols, the lights are somewhat widened.
- For all "rail" symbols, the sleeper has been moved forwards, so that it doesn't merge with the vehicle.
- For all symbols, the bump effect has been lessened a lot (it causes shadows and it wouldn't work well with the dark background or halo).
I think the above have made the icons better.

Here is an example (icons for the GLR-in-Avenue stations):



Compare it with the previous version (right image).

Another example (roads):



And U-rail/road dual puzzle pieces:



(got bored and didn't make all combinations, huh  ).

I think the set is easy to be extended for diagonal stations and for SAM. Maybe the icons set could become an option in V4.

[z]

I think these are great.  The colors and shapes make the icons very easy to tell apart, especially since they use the standard SC4 color coding.  I think they would make an excellent alternative icon set for V4.

[FrankU]

Yes, I also think they are great.

Good work Cogeo, thanks a lot.

[z]

A set of new RTMT stations is in the midst of creation, and should be released shortly.  The stations are for T-RAM, which was a very recent decision.  The problem is that there are currently no stations for the T-RAM, so Sims who manage to get on the train at an avenue, for example, can't get off once it switches to the T-RAM.  They're a lot like Charlie on the MTA.  (My apologies to the non-American members for the cultural reference.)  I was specifically reminded of this verse:

                                         Charlie's wife goes down
                                         To the Scollay Square station
                                         Every day at quarter past two
                                         And through the open window
                                         She hands Charlie a sandwich
                                         As the train comes rumblin' through.

So I am putting together a small package of stations for the T_RAM folks so that their Sims can get off the train (and get on it more easily, too).  I plan to simply post this package in the T-RAM thread as a standalone file; when RTMT V4 comes out, the stations will be fully integrated with the rest of RTMT.

You can follow what's been going on in the T-RAM thread starting here.  Further comments about these stations should probably continue in this RTMT thread, and I am going to make a short post to that effect in the T-RAM thread.

The one thing that makes the T-RAM stations so challenging is that the sidewalks are so narrow that many of the standard RTMT props cannot be used.  No bus shelters, no subway stairs.  The one thing I managed to do since my last pictures in the T-RAM thread is to add the Maxis yellow-and-blue telephone to the station, leaving just enough room for pedestrians to walk by it.  Here's a picture of the current proposed combination bus and tram station, including the telephone.



There are lots more pictures in the T-RAM thread, including a nice night shot, with everything lit up.  I'd recommend reading the thread from the point I mentioned, and then posting any further comments here.  This is the first lot I've designed, so I'd be very interested in feedback.  Are there enough props?  Too many?  Which would you like to see added or deleted?  Please let me know.

[LE0]

It looks great but the black/yellow stripes barrier blocks the car lane slightly.
Just a minor detail, nothing big.

[Erzei]

...  The problem is that there are currently no stations for the T-RAM, so Sims who manage to get on the train at an avenue, for example, can't get off once it switches to the T-RAM ...

That's not true.

I'm using BriPizza overhanging El-Rail stations for the T-RAM. I plop one station next to the TramOverRoad piece, and the sims can use or get out of the stations. Of course, it don't look aesthetic, but at least it works.

So, i'm planning to do some overhanging stations. I'll post a picture later showing it.

[b22rian]

I'm using BriPizza overhanging El-Rail stations for the T-RAM. I plop one station next to the TramOverRoad piece, and the sims can use or get out of the stations. Of course, it don't look aesthetic, but at least it works.

So, i'm planning to do some overhanging stations. I'll post a picture later showing it.

i think the problem might be that both the station and puzzle piece are transit- enabled (TE lots).. and
it my understanding that you need to have at least one tile between (TE) lots before they can be functional
I think...

Thanks Brian

[cogeo]

Quite a progress!

So for the straight T-RAM puzzle pieces (the diagonal ones are going to be released in the future) we have several models for the GLR shelter prop:
- Gshmails' : This is indeed good looking, and avoids the problem with the platforms by using only one platform in the middle. Maybe someone could ask gshmails to make a diagonal version too.
- SFBT : really nice, and no platforms!
- Chrisim's : two simple narrow side platforms; they barely fit, I would say they rather protrude to the road quite a bit.
- Antoine's : this is good-looking (well aesthetics is subjective), but it was desinged for the GLR-in-Avenue puzzle pieces (which do have more space in the middle); as a result the poles protrude in the road. I think we should ask Antoine to narrow it a little (and why not, make a diagonal version too). There is another reason for updating this, the model as far as I can see has been modded for (semi)transparency; without redesigning the LODs, this model will definitely have glitches, like the poles at the back shown in front of passing trams. I'm not sure if this can work by changing the LODs alone, it may instead require splitting it into two parts (front and back half) and combining them again in iLive. This, however is too tedious, and success isn't guaranteed.
- Mine (the ones currently included in RTMT) I will discuss this in some more detail:

- First of all, these were designed for GLR-in-Avenue too, and that's why they don't fit well in T-RAM. I wanted outer platforms too, and made them as wide as possible (they are still narrow though). As I would prefer RTMT having only one GLR Shelter prop, used in both GLR/Ave and T-RAM, I would suggest that we make a narrower version (for use in both cases).
- This is quite easy to be done, although the gmax file is currently missing. This is because the model actually consists of three parts: the poles and timetables, the roof (semitransparent) and the platforms. The reason I made it this way was technical: LODs are quite easier to make, and there are problems with shadows too ie while the roof and the poles should be a ground-level model (Is Ground Model = true), so that they display shadows, the platforms should preferably not, because the low height causes problems with shadows (the model may be obscured by its own shadow, or cause a "grille" effect - both visible in gshmails' model). A sideffect of having separate models is caused by another SC4 bug, the way shadows are rendered on top of another model (an awful grille effect is displayed). These were worked around by exploiting another... SC4 bug, ie that of the models displayed by using the Resource Key Type 4 property, only the first displays shadows. The part with the poles and timetables was the one that was put first, so only this casts a shadow. This way the platforms are not burried under their shadows, and get very little shadow (from the poles). The roof doesn't really cast a shadow, but this isn't very noticable, and it would cause a grille on the platforms. So I think for a the next version a new prop should be designed.

My proposed changes to the design are:
- The outer platforms should become quite narrower, so as to fit in T-RAM. As this is a separate model, only could make only this part (at least for testing).
- The platforms should be lowered further. As these don't really display shadows, the smaller height isn't a problem. The taller the height, the narrower the platform looks.
- For the same reason, a striped model should not be made. Not only it makes the platforms look taller/narrower, it acts as an eye-catcher too, and for an area that the designer would instead seek to avoid. The simpler and duller the texture here, the better. Such narrow platforms can never look really good, so the solution (if you want platforms) is try to make the observer focus at other parts of the model.
- As the platforms cause so many problems, one could consider making a model without platforms, as Andreas suggested.
- Finally there are going to be diagonal versions, so making a new model is unavoidable. It can be painted in more colours, so make a whole set of models. The gmax (BAT) for is currently missing, but such a model is quite easy to make. The roof is part of a cylinder; selecting the desired (or all, if the cylinder was sliced) edges, and clicking "Create Shape from Edges" creates a shape (spline) consisting of the selected edges. The shape doesn't need to be collapsed to mesh (to show in the export), instead an Edit Mesh modifier can be addeed, so that it is possible to change the splines' thickness easily, and select the one that looks best. The "stem" in the middle is a simple cylinder object. The glass is a sliced cylinder (or extruded arc) of a radious slightly smaller than that of the cylinder used to create the lattice. I think such a model would be a good "first BAT" for anyone who would like start BATting. Using the very same technique, more variants can be made, like with a single curved surface instead of two (with the edges being lower than the middle), or with level (but inclined) shelter instead of a curved one.
- Maybe each shelter could consist of three segments instead of four. This model has "too much lattice", and the semitransparency is hardly visible. Removing one segment will make semitrnsparency more noticable. The opacity could be somewhat lowered (eg try 40%, 33% or even 30%, instead of 50%), if it still looks too opaque.
- The lanterns (yes, they do exist - mostly visible in night view) could be a bit enlarged.
- Some players have commented that the model is oversized (tall?). I think it was made just tall enough to accomodate tram automata. Pls note that some of them have pantographs which make them quite tall. I think the most relevant person here is vester, and maybe he could be asked.
- I'm not an architrect, so I can't think of a good design, but maybe there's another thing that could change: the model has four poles, spaced evenly; maybe it could have five poles, but without the half-length empty spaces at the extends, ie |‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾| instead of ‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾‾|‾  (the length and spacing of the poles would remain the same). Maybe someone with an architectural background could help here.
Or whatever you think it could improve the model.


As for the lot, firstly it was right to remove the benches, as not only they made the platform look narrower, and attracted attention to an area we would wish to avoid, they posed requirements about the GLR model design too (for example these couldn't be used with gshmail's model) and this is against RTMT's basic principles.

I think the lot still needs some work to make it like the rest of RTMT.
- The GLR stations could use a zebra texture, just like the GLR-in-Avenue stations.
- There are no markings; for GLR there are no markings anyway, but all other RTMT stations do have (optional) markings for bus stops. The textrure files (currently with V3.5) should be updated accordingly (include markings for T-RAM networks too). Exisitng markings will simply not fit.
- I think the lampposts not only overload the lot with props, to my opinion they look odd too. No other RTMT stations have lampposts. Also I don't know if T-RAM displays lightpoles (GLR-in-Avenue does, after running the game for a few game-months afrer plopping). In such a case they will look really odd. And not no mention that these ones are not from SC4 iteslf (are they ?), so an additional dependency would be required. So I think these should better be removed (sorry j-dub).
- As the lot is two-tiles long, the props could be moved off the middle, like in 1x2 Road/Bus Stations. This will fit better with the zebra texture too.
- Maybe the GLR-only and Bus-only lots could be one-tile long instead.
- I wouldn't rule out subways either. The sidewalks are very narrow (1m), but the subway props for RTMT are narrow too (2.3m). The props can use all space on the sidewalk and protrude 1.3 to the lots behind the station. They won't look very very nice, and there may be restrictions to where these could be placed (most lots won't have any problem at all though), but hey, you can have subways for T-RAM this way!. My only reservation is technical, ie this requires that the prop centre lies outside the lot, and I don't know if this works (LE won't allow to save such a lot, but the prop can be moved using the reader). Otherwise this would require an overhung subway prop.

EDIT:
- I think you should not release GLR-on-Road GLR stations. The inner black areas are actually road lanes, and the GLR shelter prop on top of the lanes looks unrealistic. Players can use the GLR-in-Road to GLR-in-Road transition pieces before and after the station. You can't do this with textures as this dictates the GLR prop's lenght (eg you won't be able to use the long model there). For GLR-on-Road you should only make busstops (and subways and bus/subway combos if you finally include subways).


Hope everything works smoothly, and this is released soon.

[Andreas]

I do have a copy of gshmail's GLR-in-Avenue station, as he sent me the model back then, because he had troubles getting something right (I don't remember what it was, though). So I rendered a diagonal version today - if you want, I can send it to someone. You might want to contact him in the first place, though.

[cogeo]

I have just made a set of buttons for T-RAM:



I could make the subways too, if you need subway buttons.

The main benefit of this design is expandability, ie you can easily make new buttons for any network. The only requirement is a clear and easy to distinguish background texture. As you can see, there is no problem with the symbols, as their design (light-coloured figure superimposed on dark background or halo) solves the problem of the varying background. Also diagonal versions are as easy to make.

[z]

I do have a copy of gshmail's GLR-in-Avenue station, as he sent me the model back then, because he had troubles getting something right (I don't remember what it was, though). So I rendered a diagonal version today - if you want, I can send it to someone. You might want to contact him in the first place, though.

That's great!  I would really appreciate it if you could send that to me.  I contacted gshmails early on about including his SC4Model files with RTMT; part of his response was, "Of course, use them to your heart's content!  I am glad to hear that people are still enjoying my designs."  I have since contacted him about the gmax files, but not gotten any response.  But I think the intent in his initial response was clear enough.  If people disagree, please let me know.

I'll be responding to Cogeo's very useful message when I have a little more time.

[Andreas]

Steve, I sent the model to cogeo, as he was asking me via PM for it. If gshmails is ok with that, I guess we can use it without any problems (I got a similar reply for distributing his work at SimCityKurier, actually).