choco's attempts at BATing bridges

[choco]

i guess i'll double post for this little guy...

still rough, but the RUL's workin.....

[deathtopumpkins]

Ohh nice!!

We needed a bridge like that for el-rail!

[Orange_o_]

Choco, this bridgeis different.    

With the JRJ tutoriel , I thought that bridges consisted of a start piece, a "pylones" piece, and a repeat.  


I have several questions:

- Can we have several pieces "pylones "?
- Can we decide on the number of repeat piece between "pylones" piece ?
- All these pieces have to make only one 16x16? Or can we have for example a longer start piece ?



Orange

[cogeo]

- Can we decide on the number of repeat piece between "pylones" piece ?

Yes, you can specify the number of repeat pieces between pylons.

- All these pieces have to make only one 16x16? Or can we have for example a longer start piece ?

Yes, the start/end part may be made up of more than one tile (and they can be different), or even it can be zero-length, ie having no start/end tile.

- Can we have several pieces "pylones "?

Don't understand what you mean here, could you clarify it?

[metarvo]

- Can we have several pieces "pylones "?

You know, I'll bet Orange means different styles of pylons.  I could be wrong, but that would be my guess.

Is that a GLR bridge, or an el-Rail, choco?  It really is something else, whichever one it is. 

[smoncrie]

Orange_o_ I will answer your question.

In the bridge's exemplar you can specify any number of pieces for the ends, any number of pieces for the pylons, the repeat piece, the spacing between pylon pieces, and the bridge's minimum length.  Other properties can also be in the exemplar such as the cable parameters for a suspension bridge, or cable stayed bridge.

If the bridge pattern can not be specified by the exemplar, bridge RULs can be used.  There is a separate bridge RUL file for each different type of network (e.g. Monorail).

In the bridge RUL file you can specify the exact pieces to be used on each bridge tile.  You can do this separately for several different bridge lengths or for all possible bridge lengths.  If a bridge has a length that is in the RUL file, the RUL file will be used.  If the length is not in the RUL file, the placement specified in the bridge's exemplar will be used.

It can take time to create the RULs for a complex bridge.


For choco's bridge above, I suspect that he is not using a bridge RULs, but he has added the parameters for a cable stayed bridge to the bridge's exemplar.


[edit] I see he answered you before I did.

[choco]

wow....busy in here.  just got off the red-eye from San Francisco.   

@dtp: 

@hello orange!  i think cogeo and smoncrie pretty much covered it....i'll add a couple more thoughts....

- Can we have several pieces "pylones "?
- All these pieces have to make only one 16x16? Or can we have for example a longer start piece ?

- you can have several types of pylons, with a small limitation.  if the bridge exemplar controls the bridge, you can only have a multi-piece pylon.  using the RUL to control the bridge, really the possibilities are endless.  you can even specify different heights to create a sloped bridge, much like the Rio Antirio Bridge in Greece.  it'll be awhile till i get to it, but i plan to exploit this to its fullest....   
- pieces have to be one 16x16 tile, but you can overhang the model in many cases to create different effects.  below is a bridge im working on.  the arch under the bridge deck is part of the pylon model.  otherwise, you it would require several 16x16 pieces to build the arch (in the below case, the arch spans 3 tiles in each direction).

as smoncrie noted below, the RUL does take considerable time to write.  so much as wrong comma, and you'll be doing circles for hours.

@metavro: thanks for the compliment!  its an El-Rail bridge....im still trying to find a suitable model for a GLR bridge.   

@smoncrie: when i first built this bridge, i had little knowledge of the RULs....while much easier, i found one major drawback to using the exemplar.  the start piece is always the same length.....i didn't think this lended well to the cable-stayed bridges.  i think on the last page i showed the HSR CS bridge before an after applying the RUL. 

another problem that crept up was that the maxis scheme for adding cables to the bridge (via the exemplar) only allows for a single set of cables on each side of the pylon.  so for the rail cable bridges, i had to BAT the cables.....which i dont like much for other reasons, mainly they look bad at zoom 1 and 2.

more than interested if you have any suggestions....
-------------------------

well, besides the above bridge, i was able to get some work done on this during the down time...

   

[threestooges]

i found one major drawback to using the exemplar.  the start piece is always the same length

Actually, it is possible to use the exemplar to specify multi-piece start/end pieces (or, at least I've done it before, might've messed something up to get it there, but it worked), but you are right in that RULs are quite powerful, if not time consuming to create. I believe an example of this was PaulvMontfort's Garabit Viaduct. As I recall, the non-arch version was not RUL'ed, but you'll note that it still contains the extended length start/end. Very nice bridge you have this time choco. You've really gotten better, and this one shows it.

[choco]

hey matt...

Actually, it is possible to use the exemplar to specify multi-piece start/end pieces

ill try to clarify a bit....

anytime the exemplar controls the bridge, it'll always have X number of start pieces, as specified by the NumEndPieces property.  it'll fill in the rest of the bridge with only repeat and pylon pieces, in whatever manner is specified in the other properties.  i chose a different route with the cable-stayed bridges....i fix the number of repeat and pylon pieces and vary the number and pattern of the starter pieces (or approach span).....it actually makes the RUL fairly quick to write.

i posted a couple pics of the difference....

the early pic of the HSR CS bridge before i wrote the RUL.....way too many pylons when it was drawn at large lengths, and seemed disproportionate to the length of the approach imo....
exemplar
 
after the RUL.....the RUL only allows 5 or 6 pylons even at a length of 255. second pic down....
RUL

i hope that helps a bit.     nothing really new....the pics ive posted of the Saltash bridge were generous views...if ya wanna see how bad it looks without a RUL, ill post a pic (would have to wait for some cables to finish rendering though).

it'd be fairly easy make each 'version' available.....i'm interested in the general view if anyone would like to chime in.   

[threestooges]

Heh, I was wondering if that's what you meant. I know that RULs can dictate the precise specs of a bridge, and I'll look forward to seeing how you use them. I just wanted to clarify that it's not impossible (for any who might be wondering) to have multi-piece start/ends for bridges, just that they aren't as flexible. Again, nice progress.
-Matt

[smoncrie]

Choco, I agree that cable stays specified in the bridge exemplar are quite limited.

I have also seen that zoom one and two can be a problem in bridge models.  There is a way to fix this, but it should only be used if there is no other way, or it will make zooms one and two slower to appear.  What you do, for each model, is to replace the rendered BAT S3Ds for zooms one and two (IIDs 0x#####0##, and 0x#####1##) with copies of the S3Ds for zoom three (IIDs 0x#####2##).  The FSH (textures) for zooms one and two can then be deleted to save space.

One of the advantages of using BATed cable stays is that you can put lights on the cables, as is often done in RL.  I wish you could also do this with suspension bridges, but it would be a lot of work if you want the suspended section to have many different lengths.

By the way, in a PM I suggested at way to add deck textures.  You can also use the same technique for two textures, by adding two rectangles; one for each texture.

[Orange_o_]

Sorry for my absence, thanks to all three for your answers, them will be useful for me before some times. 

I would mean speaking to you about it


Orange

[choco]

hi all,

gettin bogged down at work lately, so i haven't much time anymore to BAT....   most of my bridges were in an intermediate state, meaning the models are relatively rough and not-so-good looking.  so they'll be on the shelf for a while....

if anyone is interested, i'd like to offer a modding service for bridges.  all i need is someone to make models with the properly assigned ID's....just shoot me a PM and i'll get ya started....


since im now an IT SA, i'll still be around from time to time to say hi.....just dont have the extra time that i once had.

with all that said, i wanted to post one more pic.  this'll be what i work on in the extra minutes of my day....the last RUL i need to write 

[smoncrie]

Choco, it's too bad that you won't have as much time for SimCity4, but I hope your RL job is rewarding.

I have been doing a fair amount of work on your RHW-6S bridge. Adding the RHW-6S deck texture (tedious), fixing LOD problems for zooms 1 and 2 (I wish BAT would handle this better), and fixing the column top for the end pieces in the bridge exemplar (Oops I just noticed my RHW-2 bridge has the same problem!)  Here is the result:



The bridge deck uses the same texture as the RHW-6S starter puzzle piece.  When this texture is fixed both the puzzle piece and the bridge deck will be a better match for the ordinary RHW-6S texture.  There is also a small texture problem with the RHW where it connects to the bridge, but it will need to be fixed in a new version of the RHW mod.

[choco]

thanks smoncrie!  new job is definitely rewarding, especially from an experience standpoint.  computers were merely a hobby, now im acting System Administrator for my company......with no prior IT experience.  the old IT guy was fairly upset over his terminiation (rightfully so), leaving me to reverse engineer the entire system.  im hoping to have this completed in the next month.....enabling me to resume work in BAT in my downtime. 

im definitely going to resume.....just not likely at the rate i was a couple weeks ago. 

boy, does that bridge look exponentially better!  fantastic job!  i didn't BAT the pylons very long, so they will need extended....which wont take long.  if you need any help or resources, lemme know. 

i presume you mean the outside texture failing to meet the bridge as the "small texture problem"?  funny thing though; i was able, in certain circumstances, to complete the texture.  i can't really explain it though.....

[threestooges]

Well I have somewhat mixed feelings here. Congratulations on the new job, and good luck getting everything straightened out, but on the other hand... they can't take an excellent bridge designer away from us. You've certainly come a long way in a short time, and I'm glad to hear you'll be doing the modding thing still. Glad to see the Saltash is getting close to completion. One of these coming weekends, I'd like to chat with you about that bridge tutorial thing (modding/ruls/modelling and all that other stuff) I had mentioned earlier. Best of luck with the new job, and I'll see you around.
-Matt

[smoncrie]

Choco, I hope you continue to enjoy your new job. 

Yes, that is the "small texture problem" I was talking about.

Personally, I think the length of the pylons is fine.  Instead of changing the length, why not see if they look better if they are just a little closer together?  If you mean how far they go down, I don't think that is a problem, I checked it and it looked fine.  If you want to change the pylon, I suggest that you center the pylon under the bridge tile so that it meets the water in the centre of the shadow.  I know this is less realistic, but unfortunately the overhanging part of the bridge cannot have shadows.

The bridge should have streetlights; at least it should have streetlights when it (the bridge) has power.  What streetlights do you think would be suitable?

[sithlrd98]

smoncrie & Choco  I hope the texture issue can be fixed , these are really great looking! I also agree they need lights , just not sure which ones.

Jayson

[Pat]

choco wow congrats on your promotion!!! That is soo cool and well I excited for ya's!!!  But you must not forget about us at all!!! OK!!! The bridges are looking ACE wow!!!!

[Swamper77]

smoncrie & Choco  I hope the texture issue can be fixed , these are really great looking! I also agree they need lights , just not sure which ones.

Jayson

They will probably be given the default Maxis streetlights so they will have lights with a very basic Plugins folder. If someone wants different styled ones, then they can go download a mod that replaces the Maxis ones.

-Jan