More Help, Please (with farms)

[thingfishs]

Hi,
These are some examples of where I am up to with the farms/fields. I have been using couchpotato's seasonal grapevines but want to make them truly seasonal (with a leafless winter period) so with his her permission I am in the process of modifying/creating this.
(ignore the tractor in each shot, it was just there as a measuring device. However I was hoping it could appear randomly in the vineyards as a timed prop. Can this be done with a growable farm?)



Also the posts at the very end of rows (called strainer posts) are wider and lower than the other posts (along the lines of what I have done in the winter/bare version) Will these work in game or will I have to make them the same as the other posts? (in the interest of only having them at the end of rows) Also will these be able to grow up hills, how is this best achieved?

I'm sorry but I still don't understand quite how I'm supposed to format these but I'll keep trying.

(Also should I start a farm specific thread somewhere with this?)

[Elric888]

As for turning the tractor into a timed prop, this thread has a tutorial on just that: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=4789.0
Nice looking farm! 

[jmyers2043]

However I was hoping it could appear randomly in the vineyards as a timed prop. Can this be done with a growable farm?)

I guess you want the tractor to grow in the fields?

Remember that a field tile is 1X1. And as near as I can tell you've created a farm lot that is 5X5. So if you zone a 15X15 farm and if a winery grows on it you'll have total 225 tiles minus 25 tiles of the farm leaving you with 200 field tiles.

So let's say you put a timed tractor on your new grape vine field tile. There will be 200 tractors appear and disappear.

How to control the number or placement of tractors? I think I'd make the winery somewhat large. Let's say - oh 8X8. A small 5X5 section looks like the farm lot and the rest of the farm lot is made up of grape vines that look just like your field. Perfect place to put a timed tractor prop. It would appear to be in the field but you can control the numbers. Perhaps that's what you have in mind but I can't tell from reading your question.

Just had another thought - you could Mod a tractor so that it acts like the Maxis irrigation sprinkler or Maxis field worker. But I haven't the foggiest on how to do that.

The grape vines on the field lot is made up of 4 seperate props. So from that standpoint they are fairly slope conforming. Not perfect but good enough.

Strainer Post! Ha! You certainly know more about grapes than I do. If you're asking for advise? I'd try to make the strainer posts look as close one can to the originals. The casual gamer will otherwise have a rather dramatic change during the winter months. Obviously, it's your project.

[thingfishs]

thanks Elric & Jim.

Just had another thought - you could Mod a tractor so that it acts like the Maxis irrigation sprinkler or Maxis field worker. But I haven't the foggiest on how to do that.

Yes, that's what I'm after, does anyone know how to do this?

The grape vines on the field lot is made up of 4 seperate props. So from that standpoint they are fairly slope conforming. Not perfect but good enough.

Can you explain this further? What 4 separate props? Why does number of props make a difference? confused

Strainer Post! Ha! You certainly know more about grapes than I do. If you're asking for advise? I'd try to make the strainer posts look as close one can to the originals. The casual gamer will otherwise have a rather dramatic change during the winter months.

1: I grew up in a wine growing area with the winery I am creating as the family business, so yeah, I've picked up a few things. (but know nothing compared to my brother )

2: I am assuming though that if a field has to be a 1X1 that you would then have strainer posts in every tile across a field, which will look wrong. So I will just use the one kind of post throughout the vineyard...?

Thanks for the help and please don't hesitate to tell me where I'm going wrong, I want this winery to be good.

[BarbyW]

Yes, that's what I'm after, does anyone know how to do this?

Can you explain this further? What 4 separate props? Why does number of props make a difference? confused

1: I grew up in a wine growing area with the winery I am creating as the family business, so yeah, I've picked up a few things. (but know nothing compared to my brother )

2: I am assuming though that if a field has to be a 1X1 that you would then have strainer posts in every tile across a field, which will look wrong. So I will just use the one kind of post throughout the vineyard...?

Thanks for the help and please don't hesitate to tell me where I'm going wrong, I want this winery to be good.

If you look at the following picture you can see that there are four vine props on the field. This field is from the BLS Farm Fields pack. By using four props the field has a chance of growing reasonably well on slopes. The Maxis grape vines are one single prop covering the whole field and can give some strange effects on slopes.



Each of the vines is seasonal in two states - green or gold as you show in your pictures further up. It cannot be made to have a third state - ie bare for winter - so would need an additional prop that would be stacked on top of this one and with everything modded accordingly. (BTW couchpotato is a her not a he)

The Maxis irrigation sprinkler is modded to have a random chance of appearing at certain times. The tractor would need to be set to similar properties.

A growable farm field cannot be bigger than 1x1 so the strainer posts would appear on every field that grows. This is another case where RL cannot be truly recreated in SC4 and compromises have to be made. You could make your winery and fields as eye candy lots and then make them exactly how you wish but to make a growable farm and a reward is not so easy without compromise.

[thingfishs]

(BTW couchpotato is a her not a he)

um...yeah oops Melinda, not really a guys name is it

Thanks for the info there Barby I'm starting to understand how these work now. The only problem I have with the BLS version (and many farms in SC) is that they look a field of boxes, not long rows of vines. I assume/hope that orientation of the tiles can be controlled, and then if I extend the vines a bit it might better convey the impression of continuous rows?

In regards to adding the bare prop and modifying the tractor, any further advice on how to start?

Also my winter version has individual vine, post and weed props (many more than four) is this a problem and should I be putting it all together in gmax as one piece like the original ones are?

[thingfishs]

Ok so this is a work in progress but I've had a go at a 1 by 1 vine LOT that joined together gives the impression of continuous rows. All of this is dependent on absolute orientation control which I'm hoping exists. The current post arrangement, and vine textures and probably base texture will all be changed but I'm getting closer.






Rather than a triple post I'll just add my update here.
This is version 2, it's slowly improving, still nothing like couchpotato's original (despite using the same vines)
I have used an alpha map for the leaves in this version as well as a new texture and post arrangement. Still not liking the posts themselves but am still focused on getting the textures for the vines, trunks and ground right.
I will also add another vine to each side of the tile to make the rows join up.

 

[Couchpotato]

I like the colors on your last picture but there are an awful lot of posts there.   



Also, sent you an alpha leaf image to try.   

[thingfishs]

Thanks couchpotato,

I don't have a better shot of our vineyards at hand but the way vineyards are laid out locally is three vines between each post, with 1.5m between each vine resulting in posts every 6m. The frequency with which I have laid them out isn't too far off this, but there are something like 5 or 6 vines between each post. I don't really know how to compromise here. Should I enlarge the vines? Do I decrease the frequency of the posts by 33% like you increase the size of buildings (which would result in even more vines between each post?)
I think the posts are too fat & too tall, looking at the established vines in the back of my photo the posts aren't really visible during summer.



I have also included versions of the leaf texture and alpha that I used on the last version. I don't know why it didn't work, I'll try again with your leaf.

[BarbyW]

thingfishs, you will never get a completely RL version of what you are trying to do. You have to compromise within the limits if the game. Remember that if you want growable fields then you are limited to a 1x1 field size which will limit the realism of the vines. Unfortunately you cannot make a field to grow with some having less posts or no posts at the end. Although different fields can be attached to a farm only one will gorw at a time. The only alternative is by making ploppable eye candy fields.

[thingfishs]

Hi Barby,
I think you misunderstand what I'm doing. What I've created is a 1x1 lot, I'm not suggesting making multiple versions with different post arrangements, just debating how I will arrange the posts within my 1x1. However I've realised adding further vines to the edge of the LOT to make the rows seamless isn't going to work, as can be seen in this shot, when they are arranged right next to the winery the vines actually stick through the wall.
I know I am bound by the limitations of the game, I just don't know what all those limits are yet. Please don't feel that I am ignoring your advice, it's just going to take me a while to fully understand it all.

[Couchpotato]

Thanks couchpotato,

I have also included versions of the leaf texture and alpha that I used on the last version. I don't know why it didn't work, I'll try again with your leaf.

Your leaf texture looks great.   Maybe BAT is just being difficult which it's known to do.   

[thingfishs]

Well I tried again (with the alpha map) and couldn't perceive any change so I've gone back to your model couchpotato. (maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'll post some photos next time to show you how I am applying it)
As I've said I've been trying to arrange the 1x1 field so it better represents continuous rows, with some success.



This first image shows two different attempts, the patch circled in red is closer to what I am trying to avoid, the second one in blue is, from this angle at least, closer to what I am trying to achieve. (plus an example of it in autumn/fall mode)



But from this view it's still boxy, not as bad as the earlier version but if it can be improved still I'm keen. Because of the way couchpotato's prop is laid out (with posts on each end) it's hard to avoid the box effect. With my version I was able to avoid it (more so) but they look pretty poor compared to couchpotato's. I will keep trying to improve my version, but if anyone has any thoughts on any of this please let me know.

[thingfishs]

Okay, so I haven't given up on making my own version of the grapevines. In case I'm doing something wrong regarding the alpha maps which I'm told aren't working, I'll show how I am applying them:


first I am selecting all the leaves


then physically dragging the texture into the material editor (if I do it the normal way, by clicking new, the maps control goes away)


then I am applying the alpha in the maps section, that's it.




Also a couple of shots of my latest attempt. This version is essentially seamless from both angles, but is missing posts at the end (and still looks amateurish, but I think is improving)



I've had a go at replicating couchpotato's effect of "floating leaves" that really makes her model look like the real thing, but I've still got ways to go.
Something else I've noticed when comparing hers to mine is how much bigger hers are. When I try to access non-uniform scale to stretch them up a bit (which seems to me the thing to do, tell me if there's a better way) and I change the z axis value, it only changes the z axis placement of the model without distorting it at all.

[Girafe]

I have tested alpha map, it works fine good leafs

Don't know why you have a bad effet with it   

[Couchpotato]

I tested those grape vines and they're the ones I used.   Here's how I applied the textures
The opacity bitmap slot holds the black and white image.   Anything covered in black is hidden while the white areas will allow the diffuse color.
The Diffuse bitmap slot can be any color you want for your leaves... it doesn't have to be a leaf shape.






That graduated green is the texture used on my grape vines.  Found it finally.  2004 was a long time ago. 

[thingfishs]

Thanks Lynn ,

I've had another go and it seems to have worked somewhat, this is the result this time:

 

The changes I made were entering the alpha map via the opacity bit that you circled (as opposed to the one in the maps drop-down - don't know if there's any difference), as well as using your suggested texture type (rather than my leaf) and your (narrower) leaf alpha map. (oh, and I checked the two-sided box) I can certainly see more of the trunks so it's obviously doing something, but is still a long way from looking like yours. Why is the bright part of the texture centered in the middle? Am I not supposed to select all the bushes and then apply the texture, will doing it one bush at a time avoid this?
Also any advice for how best to achieve your floating leaf effect?

-I noticed in my material editor I only have the one ball, not the six you have in your shot, how come? Also do you know how to make my coloured axis pointers come back?

[Couchpotato]

The building lot looks really good.   

I was using 3ds max instead of Gmax.   When you apply the UVmap did you choose face for the leaves?

Try this texture instead of that really light colored one

[thingfishs]

Thanks couchpotato
I tried that texture but the result was initially too olive but after some greenification in PS I was happy with the result. I have tried using face in the map controls but found it reduced the overall thickness of the foliage too much, they are currently just in box mode. I reordered the vines and made a second version so the tiling wouldn't be so obvious but there's still one lighter coloured bush causing problems. I think these are actually starting to look half decent, what do you think?

I have also got two varieties of weeds to add realism on ground level, including your "spiney plant", which has come in handy, it's not so easy finding little green props. (there's glamour in weeds too...  )

   

[thingfishs]

I sorted out the lighter bush issue, I had made a couple of single vine versions as well to fill in gaps but they were still textured with the previous version. So here they are now...